The Transformation Journey: Key Insights for Leaders | Adam Bennett | Episode 274

Scott McCarthy [00:00:01]:

Adam, sir, welcome to the show. So good to have you here

Adam Bennett [00:00:04]:

today. Thanks, Scott. It’s great to be here.

Scott McCarthy [00:00:07]:

So we’re just finished talking about weather, sports, and all good stuff between differences between Canada and Australia. But I love having you Australians on the show because it’s such it’s a very I feel like we have a commonality with yet different perspective on things. So it’s just nice to have Yeah. Ozzy’s on the show with me. Oh, fantastic. Love it. So today, we’re talking about change and transformation, because lord knows we need to talk about it because it’s ever ever happening. I would love to start off From your perspective right out the gate, you know, what is transformation exactly in the 1st place?

Adam Bennett [00:00:50]:

Well, I think transformation is the combination of 3 important elements. So number 1, there is some kind of disruption Happening in the world or in your industry, that is going to affect you or your organization. Number 2, you have to then develop a corporate strategy in response, to to address those forces or pressures. And thirdly, and perhaps importantly, you have to actually take action and implement change. And so transformation for me is really about, all 3 of those elements being present. And The third one, perhaps most importantly, because it’s very somewhat easy to develop a strategy, but we all know a strategy can sit on the shelf, with nice paper, glossy graphs, and fantastic aspirations. But unless something actually happens, it’s really not worth anything. So transformation has to have all

Scott McCarthy [00:01:51]:

3. I love the last part. You actually have to take action. Like, I don’t know how many times I’ve discussed that and, actually, literally just finished recording a podcast talking a bit about that. And in my opening comments, because I was talking about vision and importance of having vision, because I was I was like, you know what? It’s time to kinda revisit the basics because we haven’t revisit the basics, and we need I find we need a good reminder every now and then. And I loved I opened with a quote. I don’t know who said it, but A vision without action is just a dream, and that’s much like a transformation. Right? It’s just oh, it’s just a or a strategy to scale.

Scott McCarthy [00:02:27]:

It’s Paperweight sitting

Adam Bennett [00:02:29]:

there. Yeah. That’s tremendous. I’m I’m familiar with that quote. It’s a Japanese adage, and it’s, I think it’s, strategy, you know, execution without strategy, is also a nightmare. So, You know, it becomes this you know, you need to know where you’re going, and you then need to know how you’re gonna get there. And I think of it in terms of, Yeah. The means and the ends.

Adam Bennett [00:02:53]:

And the ends is what you wanna do and achieve, and the means is then how you’re gonna get there.

Scott McCarthy [00:03:00]:

Right. Absolutely. Now tying off of that, and I’m sure you’ve heard this. When I talk to clients, I get it all the time. And they talk about change, transformation, and they just go, it’s just so difficult. Why is it so difficult? Like, we have such a hard time implementing this and getting people on board. So from your perspective, like, why is it Difficult or why do people perceive it to be difficult?

Adam Bennett [00:03:31]:

Yeah. It’s a great great question. I think it’s And it’s not only difficult now, I think it’s always been difficult, and it’s been well recognized that it’s been difficult. And, you know, one of my favorite quotes I’ll maybe, kind of say the quote, and we can talk about where it came from. But the quote is this, and one must bear in mind that there is nothing, more difficult to execute, dubious of sick of success, or dangerous to administer than to introduce a new way of doing things. For he who does so has Enemies of all those who profit from the existing way of doing things, and only lukewarm allies in all who may profit from the new. And that quote was written in 15/32 by, Niccolo Machiavelli. And so I think it’s been recognized throughout history that the change is difficult.

Adam Bennett [00:04:19]:

And I think it’s difficult for for three reasons. Number 1 is the status quo never has to argue its own case. So the status quo just basically sits there and plods along, adds a little bit more weight each year, a bit like rings of a tree, And nothing happens until someone or something forces change. So, you know, in many Companies, the status quo is the only option with momentum. Number 2, I think there’s a whole heap of corporate elements that reinforce Business as usual, and that could be how organizations perceive the outside world or not. It could be how they budget. It could be how they set their Capital budgets, their scorecards, it could be their culture, it could be some of the unwritten assumptions that exist in in the mindsets of those people. It could be how they manage Talent.

Adam Bennett [00:05:11]:

So there’s a whole heap of corporate elements that make transformation difficult, but most importantly, I think it’s difficult because of people and corporate personalities. And I think there are a number of personalities that resist change, and they do so for what they probably think are rational reasons. And they’re, You know, personalities like the loser, for example, who will lose their power and prestige or, you know, role from the change, and therefore, they resist it. Or it might be, you know, the the traditionalist who can’t imagine their industry Working any other way than the way it’s always worked. It could be, the auto crack who just wants to tell everyone, what to do. It could be the defender who just wants to defend how everything works now, or it could be the rationalist who just does what’s in their scorecard. And if their scorecard is Not aligned to the transformation, then they could well be busy taking the organization left when the strategy is saying go right. So I think there’s a whole heap of elements that make

Scott McCarthy [00:06:10]:

it difficult. Those different personality types, I I really liked how you laid them out, and you kinda just gave a brief explanation of them. Do you got any advice out there how to deal with those types?

Adam Bennett [00:06:28]:

Yeah. I think well, I think I would I would start by being really clear on what you want to achieve, and I think that’s where the hence the 3 elements of, transformation. And secondly, I think, you know, communicating what you wanna do in a compelling and simple manner right off the the start. And I think then as the leader, you have to then assess where are the people in your organization And who is gonna put their shoulder to the wheel of of the transformation? And I would look for 2 things. 1 is the people with the right temperament, and the right mindset for transformation, I e they’re open, they’re curious, they they’re collaborative, they wanna work with others, And they’ve got the right skill sets, I e, they’re they’re they’re good at getting things done. They understand the industry. They, I understand business process and technology and and change and project management, all those types of things. So I think I’ll start with that.

Adam Bennett [00:07:28]:

But if you then run into corporate personalities, that resist the change. I think the first thing is to to, 1, acknowledge it and actually name it. And actually say, right. You know, that person in that business unit is just not up for this. And then I think you’re faced with a choice. You know? If you if you imagine a scale, How important is that individual, and and the role they play in the organization compared to, You know, if there’s an existential threat to the organization, the customers, employees, the shareholders, etcetera, etcetera, of all of that organization weighed up, And you say, right. Well, something’s gotta give. Now that person may be able to get on board or they may not.

Adam Bennett [00:08:11]:

And if they can’t, it’s probably best for both them and the company that you part ways, and they gotta go.

Scott McCarthy [00:08:22]:

I really enjoyed the clear communication about it and especially the labeling aspect of it. Are you familiar with Author. Oh god. I’m having a brain fart moment. The author Chris Foss, author of Never Split the Difference?

Adam Bennett [00:08:39]:

No. I’ve heard of the book, but I’ve not I’ve heard the title, but I’m not familiar with it.

Scott McCarthy [00:08:44]:

Chris Voss, it’s it’s a great book. I I have actually a a copy here Somewhere in my office. I need to actually break it out and read it again, but he talks about labeling emotions and stuff in communication. It’s so it’s very similar along those lines When we’re when we’re communicating and we want the other kinda like to get the other side to understand. Yep. But you wanna come across As being empathetic to them, you you label like, oh, you you seem quite, you seem quite stressed about this upcoming change. Tell me more. So communicating with them in in that type of manner is kinda how Chris would go about it, but very similar to what you’re getting

Adam Bennett [00:09:21]:

at. Yeah. I I I agree. I I I ask People directly, where do you stand? And, you know, I I think tiles of redemption are awesome, you know, but if someone can’t get behind the change, Then, you know, you know, I I should have kept the white ant for longer, she said no one ever. You know, you’ve got if someone’s just gonna be an obstacle and widen the whole transformation because they don’t believe in it or it’s gonna pressure them, then they gotta go. And that doesn’t mean you don’t treat them fairly and kindly and all that kind of stuff, but, you know, you’ve you’ve gotta keep moving. And, you know, I also subscribed, but, yeah, graveyard’s a full of indispensable people. So, somehow the organization will make it without them.

Scott McCarthy [00:10:09]:

No one is irreplaceable.

Adam Bennett [00:10:12]:

Yeah. 100%.

Scott McCarthy [00:10:13]:

You know, no one’s irreplaceable, and and that goes against what I often say is, like, I wouldn’t say num rule number 1, but up there in the one of the top rules of, you know, always be, humble to be, you know, subscribe to humility because And that you are replaceable. And for the leaders listening, end of the day, you’re gonna leave the organization one way or another. No one stays forever.

Adam Bennett [00:10:37]:

Yeah. The key question is, in what shape do you leave it?

Scott McCarthy [00:10:41]:

Right. And, yeah, I would argue that most people would, hope To leave it in a better state than when they got there. That would be the goal. That’s that’s how I say I you know? That that’s actually where that’s what you want to strive to achieve. So with that, you know, when we’re talking about change and transformation here, Where do you think the the leader’s mindset needs to be when when they’re when they’re facing, you know, this this, you know, potential crisis that you might have this massive chain transformation that’s ongoing that is about to be launched in their company. You know, how how does one in within their headspace get prepared or thoughts align their thought processes?

Adam Bennett [00:11:26]:

Yeah. I I think, mindset is really critical. And I think one of the things you’ve already mentioned that there is Humility, and I’d say with humility and curiosity, because you wanna have some intellectual doubt. You know, I think if you enter, a transformation or if you enter the development of strategy with a view that you know everything, I think that’s a very dangerous Premise on which to start developing strategy. And if you look at the world now, I mean, the world is changing so fast, and we all know this. We all know that the pace of change is Accelerating and there’s a whole heap of forces at play. And so if you enter it thinking that you know it all, I think that’s quite dangerous. And there’s a concept in in, Japanese martial arts called shoshin, which is, beginner’s mind.

Adam Bennett [00:12:14]:

And I think that’s a really good metaphor for, executives to keep in mind when they are looking at the world, You don’t look at it through the lenses though you you know it all. And I think this can be a bit of a trap, because if you think about strategy, it’s typically done by the most senior people in a company, and those most senior people in the company have typically grown up in that industry or that company. And it’s very easy for them to self identify as experts and to think that they have all the answers. And, You know, some of them will also you know, they’ll kinda claim they’ve been there 20 years, but what they’ve maybe got is 1 year 20 times. And they’re 2 very different things. So I think Entering development of strategy and being sensitive to what’s going on in the world with a degree of humility is really important. And then I’d add to that kind of, you know, being, you know, really clear on what is the essence of what you need to do for your company to be successful. Find that that Essence that 1 or 2 things, and then focus all your attention on that.

Adam Bennett [00:13:17]:

And I always subscribe. It’s better to move 1 or 2 things forward a mile Then, you know, 50 things forward an inch. And so what are those 1 or 2 things? And then get at them with with urgency, with ambition. You know, have an ambition for the style of the transformation. Do it urgently. You know, Maintain a sense of humor and some resilience because you know it’s gonna be tough, to transform an organization, and get over yourself a bit. You know? Think about it through the lens of what you’re doing for others and for the company, and I think all of those things will will have a good mindset for, getting the transformation off to a great start.

Scott McCarthy [00:13:59]:

I really like the last Little bit there. The last word you basically said, we get over yourself. And you mentioned earlier about how a lot of senior executives see themselves as the experts. Right? And that they have all the answers. And what I’ve been saying to leaders now for for a while now, it’s we’re in a day and age where it’s not about having the answers anymore. It’s about asking the right questions.

Adam Bennett [00:14:21]:

Yep. Yeah. A 100%. I think leadership is and I think all leadership has always been about Leadership, in my view, is about creating space for others to step into. And if you don’t create that space Because you you’re full of your own ideas or, you you know, your own ideas, the only ones that ever get talked about, then you’re not creating space for others to to step into. And I think when you do that, you’re inevitably surprised on the upside by just how much people will bring. And that’s the role of a leader is to to, you know, create an environment, you know, not to have all the answers.

Scott McCarthy [00:15:01]:

Awesome, man. So we’ve we’ve discussed, you know, what transformation is from your back. You talked about some different corporate personality types and how to kinda get around them per se. We talked with a bit of mindset here and now. I’d like to get into the nuts and bolts of transformation and change from from your perspective. Like, for the leaders out there, like, what does that process actually look like? You know, starting to go actually going through and getting to the end of whatever it is thereafter.

Adam Bennett [00:15:32]:

Yeah. So I I would put it down to what I call Five, 5 mechanics. So we’ve we’ve discussed the the mindset. This kind of moves us into the mechanics of what how do you do this? And I think They’re not they’re not really well, I certainly don’t intend them to be, like, done in a linear fashion, but imagine it’s like a a checklist for, Yeah. If you were sailing a sailing ship, you’re continually, you know, checking the sails and the rudder and where the wind is, and you’re trimming the sails, all that kind of stuff. So these are 5 things do in similar fashion. Number 1, I would say is personal commitment, and that’s the personal commitment of the leader to get out in front and actually be this the actual and symbolic, owner of the transformation, and give people a sense that that the the person leading this can’t be successful unless it’s successful, Unless the change is successful. And this, of course, brings up a big debate for for CEOs and senior executives of how much time should they dedicate to a change program as opposed to dedicate to running the business as usual.

Adam Bennett [00:16:38]:

And running the business as usual is perhaps less risky than running a transformation. And again, if there’s disruptive forces at play, running the business as usual is important, but if those forces to play out. Then the organization may not exist anymore. So when you look at it through that lens, you’d say most of their time should be spent on the transformation, and they should be delegating as much of the BAU as they can. What I’ve seen sometimes is it’s the opposite. The leader wants to delegate the transformation piece and maintain the leadership of the BAU. Both are important, but They’re different, and I think, you know, that’s something for people to to think about. Number 2 is the the leader must make a choice.

Adam Bennett [00:17:23]:

And, you know, strategy is about choice, and no organization can do everything. Even a massive Multinational corporate will run out of, capacity. Even if they don’t run out of money, they’ll run out of capacity in terms of, you know, how many people they can deploy, I kind of you know, sometimes you just can’t get another mechanic around the The hood of the engine the engine in the car, there’s just not room. You can’t do anymore. And so, companies need to kind of focus and make make hard choices. And I think that’s where it can become very difficult because all organizations have competing priorities, And, yeah, we even call them priorities, whereas my preference would be to rank your, priorities. Because it’s easy to have 3, 4, 5 high priorities, But if you say, what is number 1? What is number 2? What is number 3? It forces the somewhat uncomfortable choices and Discussion around what is more important than the other. So that’s number 2, you know, make a choice and also be able to communicate that So have a compelling case for change.

Adam Bennett [00:18:34]:

And I think if you are relying on a 30 page PowerPoint deck to communicate your strategy, you’re in a bit of trouble. So I think, yeah, you should literally be able to, communicate it in a compelling way in a couple of sentences. And those sentences, Yeah. It could be as easy as because of a, b, and c, we are now doing x, y, and zed. And That’s a very easy thing to articulate, but it sometimes takes a lot of effort to distill it down to what it is you’re gonna do. And if you then add another sentence, And we’re gonna do it by this time and so and so is gonna lead it, then you’re pretty much off to a good start in communicating the strategy in a way that people in the organization will, we’ll be able to relate to because it’s simple. Number 3, I would say you’ve got to build the right team. And I spoke before about, you know, people with the right temperament, People with the right skills, and then also being very much aware of those people who could be obstacles or resist the change.

Adam Bennett [00:19:33]:

And there’s also a couple of what I would call fulcrum roles around which the entire transformation will move, and that could be someone who’s running a certain business unit For a certain function or doing certain work, which is the main kinda playground of the transformation. And if you’ve got the right people in Those roles, then you’re off to a good start. Then number 4, I would say be thorough, and be thorough in 2 aspects. 1 is, you know, understand the leaves of change that you can pull at various times to take action, and there are strategic levers such as your products and your services, your Customers, your markets, there might be alliances you can form, there might be a platform you can build. So there’s some very strategic levers you can pull, But then most of the hard work will be around what I would call the operational levers, and that’s things like business process, organization structure, Technology, people and culture, facilities, outsource providers. So by pulling all those levers simultaneously, you’re likely to get a good result. And then you’ve also gotta make sure that result is gonna lead to shareholder value. So it can’t just be, we’re gonna improve the organization.

Adam Bennett [00:20:44]:

So having us Being specific about what you wanna do and how you make, value create value is important. And last is, keep score. Yeah. Use KPIs to regularly align and keep score and and be objective about What it is you’re doing. It can’t be, yeah, we improved the company. It’s gotta be, we did something very specific and you can show the from to story to, to show how it works. So there are 5 things I would suggest are good good mechanics to use.

Scott McCarthy [00:21:19]:

Those are very, very logical, but yet, I would say cons concise, but yet comprehensive at the same time. Like, You you’ve nailed it. In my mind, you’ve made them all. I like the part you’ve talked about when you talked about priorities, And you said, okay. You gotta pick 1 or 2 because often where I find myself, you know, coaching and advising and stuff, Like, yeah, that’s a priority. This is a priority. That, that’s a priority. Yes.

Scott McCarthy [00:21:48]:

This is a priority. Well, guess what? If everything’s a priority, Nothing. Nothing. Right.

Adam Bennett [00:21:55]:

Oh, good. Yeah. I mean, it’s an interesting thing. So so I used to work for one of the big Australian banks. And and in Australia, I guess, like Canada, they’re they’re they’re quite outsized organizations in terms of, This this size relative size to other companies in the economy. And so I looked after, a bank’s investment slate, which was $1,500,000,000 a year. And it was interesting because you think that that’s a big number. So you immediately assume there must be lots of money to go around.

Adam Bennett [00:22:26]:

And what I found interesting was by the time you looked at the regulatory projects, you looked at the, you know, Technology refresh and capacity projects. The projects were in flight from last year. That number very quickly got down to a very small number. And I would say the the leadership of the organization were less like lions looking at a kinda African prey animal and more like seagulls on a chip. You know? So what was left, they were all trying to get the the the the small part of the the the slate that was left. And If you think about it, and this is a very easy thing any organization can do, if your strategy is clear, I would suggest you Explain that as a pie chart. So if there’s 3 elements, there might be 3 elements to the strategy, and you say, relatively, What does that look like as a pie chart with a 100% divided by this? What you wanna do is a pie chart. Now have a look at your investment slate and see where the money is going by percentage and compare the 2.

Adam Bennett [00:23:33]:

And inevitably, they will be very different. So what’s interesting is what you think is the strategy, I, the first part you did, actually, the strategy is where you’re spending your money. That that is what the priorities, and I think there’s a couple of things to just drive hard nosed decisions. So Again, as we discussed, like, don’t have all your priorities, rank them. You know? What is number 1? What is number 2? What is number 3? What is number 4? Because unless you do that, at some point, deep in the bows of it could be the technology team, someone’s gonna decide where, a testing analyst is gonna work on Monday, and they may actually send them to one of the projects because that suits them. But they’re actually then setting the the priority of the organization rather than, you know, actually, let’s get number 1 done. So I think, You know, having that alignment and then really be rigorous about how you’re going on them and where they are. And, Again, I’d suggest, you know, when you’re when you’re reporting on them and, you know, looking at dashboards and stuff, You know, just use red or green.

Adam Bennett [00:24:41]:

Don’t use amber. You know? So it’s either on track or it’s not. And, you know, by the introduction of Amber, it brings this ambiguity and this kinda It’s almost complacency. Oh, well, it’s Amber, you know. And how many times have we seen something Amber for a long time and then suddenly it’s red? And you can actually go it was always out. Yeah. It was always know it was red. So It’s like if it’s green, you’re doing it.

Adam Bennett [00:25:12]:

If not, it’s red. Let’s have that hard conversation.

Scott McCarthy [00:25:17]:

I really like that, you know, because, it give I find it gives people a note, and then it’s just an excuse for for mediocrity. Right? It’s like, no. It’s, Yeah. I like that that, the ideology of we’re either on track or off track. And if it’s off track, then let’s have the conversation now About how we get it back on track. The bad news is not like wine. It doesn’t get better with age.

Adam Bennett [00:25:43]:

It is. 100%. 100%. Well, what I say, Yo. Bad news should take the, elevator. Good news should take the stairs.

Scott McCarthy [00:25:55]:

Great. And then I think the problem is is that it’s still a lot of the old school ideology of, Bringing bad news. Therefore, I’m gonna look bad. It’s gonna be I’m gonna get the blame and all this stuff, whereas, like, no. Just separate the 2. Separate the person who’s bringing the bad news and the bad news themselves. Don’t think of it as their, per se, their their performance or their capabilities because Most likely, if if you done your job right through your steps, you picked your team. You’re the one that’s responsible at the end of the day, because you’re the one that picked that person to be there.

Scott McCarthy [00:26:29]:

Now Yeah. Doubt that they’ve done something completely outrageous that you’re like, like, why would you do such a thing? So the bulk of the mold story is that people show up at the end of the day or the beginning of the day looking to do a good job. They don’t wake up and go, I wonder how I’m gonna mess up work today.

Adam Bennett [00:26:49]:

Yeah. They just don’t. They just don’t. And I think If you’ve got a team of people, it’s ironic that when you’re looking at your team, you most trust and you most, Well, so I certainly don’t. I must trust those people who bring me their issues and say, hey. I’m jumping on my sword. This has happened. I feel that they they are far more effective, far better leaders than someone who’s unwilling to do that.

Adam Bennett [00:27:14]:

So when you’re looking downwards, you really like that. Although when you’re looking upwards, you can sometimes feel like, god, I better not say how badly I you know? So it’s got this kind of jewel. The person looking down is welcoming that if they’re a good leader, and the person looking upwards should be saying, yeah. I’ve got to tell them what’s really going on. And that environment of trust And, you know, realism, I think is what’s required for transformation far more than be are you because in transformation, it’s so much more urgent and transparent. And transformation as a result, I think is it’s not. It’s it’s different. It’s different to running running business as usual because there’s an urgency and a transparency that is just Not the same as BAU.

Adam Bennett [00:28:01]:

You know? And you can easily calculate the burn rate and the cost associated with transformation projects, so You better be getting at it and delivering something. Whereas the BAU sometimes is not under the same scrutiny.

Scott McCarthy [00:28:18]:

Adam, this has been an awesome, just fantastic conversation, sir. Truly, enjoyed it. I enjoyed your insights and, you know, everything you’ve brought to the show today. As we’re up here, we’ve got a couple last questions For you, first being a question asked all the guests here at the Peak Performance Leadership Podcast, and that’s according to you, Adam Bennett. What makes a great leader?

Adam Bennett [00:28:43]:

I think there are 2 things that make a great leader. Number 1 is they can Get something done and achieve their objectives. And secondly, they can do so in a way that brings their people on that journey in a constructive and positive way. But I think, you know, it’s very easy to think that the latter is most important, but I think they’re both equally important. If not, you know, you have to achieve what you set out to achieve. So you’re just being a nice person that everyone really likes, but you can’t get anything done. So leadership is about achieving, your, yeah, objectives and doing so in a really, positive constructive

Scott McCarthy [00:29:28]:

manner. Awesome. Love it. Absolutely love it. And finally, sir, I hope people find you, follow you, be part of your journey. Shameless plug.

Adam Bennett [00:29:35]:

Have at it. Yeah. Well, thank you. So, You can find me at, great change consulting. So ww.greatchangeconsulting.com.au, is my website. I’ve also written a book called Great Change, The Way TO Get Big Strategy Done, which is, published by Wiley And, it’s available on Amazon, and then you can find me on those 2 places or LinkedIn. So Adam Bennett on LinkedIn.

Scott McCarthy [00:30:04]:

Awesome. For

Adam Bennett [00:30:05]:

to, I love to chat.

Scott McCarthy [00:30:06]:

So Yeah. Absolutely. For

Adam Bennett [00:30:11]:

Sorry. You dropped out of there.

Scott McCarthy [00:30:12]:

Yeah. No. We don’t have to edit that part out. Alright. For the listener always, it is easy. Just go to the show notes, for this episode, which is always, forward slash the episode number, and the link will be there. So, Adam, again, thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule, sir. Appreciate you.

Scott McCarthy [00:30:29]:

Appreciate your time, and I’m sure the audience does as well. Thanks very

Adam Bennett [00:30:33]:

much for having me, Scott. It’s been great to chat with

Scott McCarthy [00:30:39]:

you.