Among the most important skills in leadership are gaining trust and knowing how to collaborate under stress. A great leader is the kind of person others want to follow. They know how to break down silos and model collaboration. They have the courage to build meaningful relationships, and are experts at establishing trust and touching hearts, creating an environment where people feel heard, small problems don’t escalate, and businesses succeed.
Jill Ratliff is an Author, Executive Coach, and Leadership Speaker. Jill has more than 25 years of Fortune 100 Human Resources Management experience, and knows well what amazing leaders can do under the right circumstances. In addition to starting her own leadership consultancy, she assumes the role of Senior Leadership Advisor for Beecher-Regan’s Leadership Results Practice. Prior, she served as Executive Vice President at Assurant Specialty Property, a $2B financial services organization, and held key senior positions such as Executive Vice President of Human Resources for ING North America, Director of Leadership Development for ADP and Director of Corporate Human Resources for PepsiCo’s Taco Bell Corporation. Her strength is in making the complex simple and straightforward. Jill provides thought leadership and execution of “People & Culture” initiatives that help drive exceptional business results, and has worked extensively in environments facing large-scale transformational change. She is an Amazon #1 new release Best Seller in Business Leadership with her book, Leadership Through Trust & Collaboration: Practical Tools for Today’s Results-Driven Leaders.
In the community, Jill currently serves on the Executive Committee for the Board of Directors for Junior Achievement. She was also Co-President for EMERGE, a non-profit dedicated to empowering women by advancing their education. Jill has been a mentor for 14 years with Pathbuilders, an organization that helps high-performing women accelerate their careers.
During this interview Jill and I discuss the following topics:
- Why trust and collaboration is so important
- Why trust has deteriorated so badly over time
- How leaders can mitigate poor trust perception
- How leading yourself affects trust and collaboration
- How to build trust and collaboration across the organization
If you are interested in learning more about Jill’s resources be sure to check out the following links:
- Check out Jill’s Website
- Buy Leadership Through Trust and Collaboration on Amazon
- Connect with Jill on LinkedIn
- Follow Jill on Twitter
- Follow Jill on Instagram
For the transcript of this episode scroll to the bottom of this post.
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Joe welcome to the show so great to have you here today. They scott, I’m really happy to be here so were talking about your poor leadership through trust and collaboration, and this is a super important topic. I feel like to kick it off. You know for from your perspective, feel why is this so important in the first place, like trust and collaboration yeah, I was I look like, and so am you know when you write a book about a subject like leadership and there’s many others that, like leadership, it’s such a huge topic right. It’s like the difference between going into an apartment bill, the know in an apartment are going into a mansion, and you know with leadership. It’s it’s like a mansion, so every place you go in, you have to go through a door to get in there. You have to enter somewhere and so trust and collaboration. This is just the door. I pick to go in the subjects lobby, sleep much broader than that and I’m sure we’ll explore what that even means. But why did I pick that door like why trust and collaboration is really because to me it is foundational to what we’re up against right now in the world witches. There is a really really dramatic loss, trust in our leaders across the board. I mean, I think, be and no doubt yeah. I know you’re canadian, but no doubt you’ve watched the american political scene and you can see how much divisiveness and how much lack of trust there is and our leaders at that level if we follow business, which is my lane refer to ninety years now that trust has been eroding in our business leaders. So I think the trust is eroding number one in leadership at all levels, and so it’s a topic we need to get serious about and then on. A second level of trust life is about trust. It is about how do you trust? Who do you trust? What do you trust and how medium build on a trust platform? So that’s why trust in then? Why collaboration is that everything right connection collaboration, how we work effectively together, I mean that’s: that’s like synonymous with being human. In a we are built, wired and designed to connect and elaborate, and if we’re gonna do great things together, which is sort of my thought about life than we come here to do great things together and don’t leaders bring people together to do something great together and yet the again the divisiveness, the separation, the silos and our companies you know is, is in serious disrepair, so they just seem like to really super important areas to talk about and to look you no more deeply at it to see. What’s going on there and, more importantly, you know: how can we heal some the bath? That’s awesome. Our research trust is basically the cornerstone leadership. Without trust, there is no. There is no ability to lead it. If you don’t trust who hovers above you and organization or reverse trying to lead, you you’re, not gonna, follow them, you can orient, are gonna fall them to your full potential or a bilby to to are always sit in. There you can on your tippy, toes like new home is, is actually legitimate. What they’re trying to get me to do or what they’re saying? Is that actually the truth? Is you trust us in there again? You know, god from I, I loved the cold collaboration part, because when, when organizations are sort of load they don’t trust the other silos. I mean we didn’t get the sales, because the marketing guys than dirge home do their job and the market guys are grown. Ah, profits aren’t up because the sales are there. Mimi old. Aren’t you guys like no one ever listens to us. So that’s why it’s so important collaborate, the work across silos. Yeah! Absolutely I mean we just don’t go it alone, unless I almost can’t think of sort of anything on planet earth other than going to an ashram in secluding yourself in or you know, a mountain cave somewhere like some. The mystics dead me, but there’s very, very few places that you know success on some level or just getting anything meaningful diner to slip in a good life doesn’t involve your ability to figure out how to connect, communicate and collaborate with other human beings, and that does appear to be increasingly differ. Cult in the stress levels of today’s world, all right, so, let’s, let’s get things moving for the leader of their does, loosen the show and what a on through actually kick off with even now goal of a deeper and something that you talked about in your opening remarks was your trust is eroding, and yes, the wow there’s lots of good examples and political world, but the most the people here to listen to joe in more business, oriented or more in your not not for profit, know those types of organizations but stalled principles remain the same, and so I wonder like why is trust eroding within that community, within leaders in general? Wasn’t rooting and at at no I’ll tell you honestly, I think it’s a couple things, but not the least of which is pace of change and transformation and complexity our world literally in a it. I think I you’re in you know, you’re somewhere near mid thirties to that age range phenom, yeah, sixty two and I can tell you over twice your lifetime as the world has changed so dramatically due to the introduction of technology, the twenty four seven world. We live in the pace that you have to run a business or any organization it is, is the exponential to what it was even ten years ago, twenty years ago, in the last fifty years on planet earth, there has been exponential change at a level unseen in the prior two thousand years, and I don’t think we’ve grasped it. I think, as human beings we haven’t kept up with how fast things are moving and what I experience working with my clients, which are leaders in you, know anything anywhere from entrepreneurial, oh organizations to very large multinational companies, and what I have noticed is that the that pace of change, that twenty four seven always on world has just created a stress level that is extraordinarily high, and so I don’t think people are the vast majority people or leaders are trying not to be trustworthy. I think that they are just overwhelmed. Many of them things are moving really fast. Organizations have gotten really complex and people are generally struggling and overwhelmed yeah. I could definitely see that for a multitude of reasons, and especially the last part, as we record here now, it’s a new middle of january, but fortunately the covert pandemic still goes on. I feel like I’ve been saying that for far too long now and this podcast and young people are stressed. Ah I my family. I got two young ones, I’m a leader, my organization, I got this podcast. I got to pretend to be a senior kicker. The teacher have today and all these other things in britain sometimes like. I still have these responsibilities and it’s an organization still expects things out of me in fact, context of hole on air anybody, andy murray, and then it does road that frost bit because you like, while do they actually have my best benefit and my best concerns I had to do actually care about me. As a member of the organization. Does my political editors care about meat at a citizen? While that’s what’s so interesting right? Where you could, we could talk global politics, the fascinating we could talk, major corporations. We could talk small businesses eh, then you know that some threats would be the same in all three domains, which is there are some people who are what I call sort of fairly low down the consciousness scale, so they and other sort of more ego. Centric are ego driven and they haven’t really bought in to some people. You know a sense that you know we’re all in it together and their job as a leader is to help bring others along and and be of service. So so I guess again there’s some personality and philosophical differences going on, but I can tell yeah I work with a lotta leaders and law corporations and the majority of them actually want to be good. Leaders are so much so many thing answer go on and on behind the scenes in most large companies and companies in general that are trying to be in the best interest of employees. But it’s really hard. You know it’s very hard to me. Everybody’s needs it’s very hard to communicate enough. It’s very hard to keep up with the vienna again the changes come and it’s very hard to keep up with shareholder pressure. From you know, shareholders in the stock market, like growth by the expectations, are accompanied it grower extreme. Nowadays, it’s sort of like a professional sports. My son’s professional athletes yeah it professional sports is the most performance driven business on the planet, because you get your performance review every week. When you play the score, is the score. You either did your job or you didn’t, and I know fez what athletes get fired from their jobs by text message on christmas eve, if they’re not performing so you know so I think the pressure to perform and the professor, the presser business, to hit your numbers and hit your results is so high on business leaders. That’s creating pressure. So it’s just a lot. I always say to people get super opinionated about what the organization should be doing. Just shadow was ceo for a week or two and watch what they have to wrap their heads around and how much they have to you know, manage a drive, and then they got all their people underneath them in all their various levels of opinions, and you know again, silos and stress assist not easy to do business today, and so I think, that’s part of it. I don’t think people leader has don’t want to be good leaders. I don’t think they don’t want to be transparent, the majority of them, I think they are just lost in the mall and in the woods, trying to figure out how to get it all done. One raise our kids, be a kindergarten teacher meet the performance expectations. It’s just a lie, no absolute years and unfortunately hear how everyone sees everything. That’s goes on an organization room where I was younger. I thought there’s always a lot of fun. Poor assumptions are from from the lower levels within organizations that, unfortunately, the slow jerusalem, the the rhodes trust at the higher levels of orders and festus. So how can leaders out there go mitigating things like a million dollar question? That’s why your editor, I know- maybe let’s get after it yeah. You know I’ve been at siege, our the executives present human resources, people and culture, human capital, whatever name you want to call it. It’s a bobbed many times over the last twenty years, in particular in terms of what we call people that do what I do, but essentially trying to help the organization match the talent and the people and the culture up to the piano to the strategy in the business in the results right, that’s the game. You’re trying to play and culture plays a huge part nash and the leaders you have at every level play a huge part in that. So I spent millions of dollars on leadership. Programs from you know harvard and wharton, and stamp burden. Private companies like center for creative leadership in bringing in again military leaders to teach leadership, skills and business like I’ve tried all of that and hire people come in and if I had to do it all over again, I would put all of my money and attention into one course called lead by example, and he kids that really down and then I would start adding other things on if I had to from there. But I think the biggest challenge is so many leaders again or at such a level of stress that they’re trying to lead others and they’re and they’re even struggling to lead themselves. So they don’t understand a how and in my book I talk about this gotten erratic, but it’s the eighty twenty problem, even if a leader is eighty percent on it, but twenty percent of the time they’re off the chain or they’re, sad or they’re, not done the right thing. They don’t communicate enough. Then that’s what they’re gonna, that’s the effect they’re gonna have in the organization. So when I say lee yourself, first, you have to know as the leader where you hold in, where you fold and the I’m country, music fans, that’s a kenny rogers song, dino gotta, know when to hold them and when to fold em back in the day, but I say you gotta know where you hold and where you fold and what level of stress causes you to show up or interact with or league, not from a position of strength. And how do you get back in to activity? Get clear get com said that you can can neat your people where they are that you can carve out the time to communicate effectively so that when people are upset, you can create a space for them to be upset. You don’t get triggered by other people’s, you know stress and challenges and problems, so this is all would be in the you know, sort of a lead by example, yeah kind of curriculum. How do you do that and yeah? We can talk about that. You know as well, but it starts with. You have to have more leaders than we have today who won know. Why their leaders and to know where they hold, where they fold and understand how they can strengthen their own resilience and ability to stay calm under pressure and navigate change and transformation and stress or you’re you’re, you’re speaking to my heart, because you’re movie for leadership and focus on mar called the three domains of leadership and the first one being leading yourself there out. Reading your your your team and and finished with leading organization, because I firmly believe, if you can’t leave yourself, you can’t leave people in aren’t people the organization. So let’s dive deeper into that and cern where leading yourself becomes pivotal for for establishing trust, poor, stuyvesant and cooperation across an organization. Yeah trust erodes when, when you do something that intentionally or unintentionally affects other people in a negative way right. So when would we do that? We would do that when we become reactive. We would do that when we don’t. Ah, our conscious of our words and how we say things you know we would do that when we get in fear about something and we feel like we can’t we don’t or confused or upset or or madden, or he also saw any time you can’t let yourself it’s because you’re in over your head, so you’ve got gotten now like how to build resilience in this world. You’ve gotta know how you act under stress always say to people. You know very talks, personality differences and I’ve spent a lifetime time studying personality, I’m certified at least twenty different person out the instruments that are out there satisfy time. My earlier in my career thing about personality, but what I noticed is any personality will do at a party like any that when you close a million dollar deal, it’s completely irrelevant the personalities on the marketing team in the us team and everybody celebrate and like the personalities, don’t matter unless it’s under stress unless there’s a problem unless it’s under adversity. Unless we have a problem, we can’t figure out a sob in europe, satin the other person’s upset and people people’s down side of their personality. Their weaker sides to their personality are now interacting with each other. So you have to be someone who even understands that a person’s personality isn’t the problem. It’s a person’s ability to navigate the stress they’re under and your ability to not get sucked in to the storm. When there is a storm, you have to be able to stay in your best self and you’re stronger personality traits. If you’re gonna leave people in a stressful or challenging situation, you can’t so you have to know that about yourself right. You gotta know what stresses you? What do you act like when you get stressed? What are the thoughts that are going through your head when you’re stressed, and then you know, how can you build the muscle, and I can give you my he’ll approach, very, very simple tool for how you can begin to start doing this? And then, ah you not. You probably heard this in some version. Practice you know, is the only road to mastery period. If you wanna be a resilient leader under stress, you have to practice being a resilient leader under stress. There is no model that works without you practice thing. It’s like you to get in shape. You could drive by the gym every single day. You could study what everybody in the gym still and you could. You could understand the heavy weight room, narrow, big room, the light weight room. You can know everything about getting in shape. You could be brilliant about getting in shape the great books about it, but you don’t get your ass in the gym and start lifting some weights that you’re in how can it be in shape right? So it doesn’t matter what you know about leadership. I know leader said know more about leadership, the written books. They read books, but it doesn’t matter what we know in today’s world. It matters what you can do in today’s world. Can you be that leader, when the people looking to you for your leadership, whether it be your family, whether it be your community or whether it be people at work, need you to lead? Can you do it when the last thing you feel like doing is holding yourself accountable to a higher level of standard of behavior? Then what your ego wants to do in that moment, oh nimmo, warm fuzzy heroes would you’re you’re speaking my language. Exactly what I talk about great all. These things are awkward own weekly basis, so I I I do interview shows that launch wednesdays about. I kick off the week with wanna call monday leadership minute where I come off for five minutes and conor just talker topics just like arya and when the recent ones was leaders face adversity. We go for redial. That was this week, while the nato did you do that when this are we leaving react. If I think I am yeah, but that’s exactly what you’re talking, but we don’t shy away. We can’t shy away, are people organization, they deserve better, and it goes back to exactly what we’re talking about here and those trust and building the trust, because if you, if you don’t do these things, your team is not gonna trust you going to do those things, what they need you to do when the time comes, for you to do them, and I see too many people out there renown. I try not to get too political or political own show on forty unfortunate, given too many examples. This past week, a hearing camera man gonna go into the states are, but here canada, how many? If it’s come up now I’ve lost count of how many political leaders who, for too ten eleven months now have been sitting on her standing on their soap boxes going you need to stay home for the betterment of the country, your province, to a community. Whatever you need to stay home, you need to social distance. All this stuff, which is omnipresent true, yet is coming out of the news of them going to hawaii down to the states into europe. All these other places- and I you bunch of hypocrites that is not leadership. That’s why I prefer to be in as a boss. Do what I say not as I do fear in the in fact erodes trust and when you’re in that game, wins trust is gone. You lose your job well, and it goes back to me that difference between leadership and just being a yeah somebody that you always have to lead your own life eh anyway, silas think leadership’s the topic whether you actually have a formal position that identifies you as leader which, by the way, you phrased your hand and signed up for right. He said I wanna, be you wouldn’t get the job if you didn’t sign up for it. So there is an added responsibility when you put yourself in a position where you, where other people look to you for your leadership and you’ve, either been hired to do that, are elected to do that or whichever the case may be, you do have a responsibility goes beyond leading in your own life, which I think anybody in their own personal life gets to do whatever you wanna. Do. I mean obviously consequences if that means you hurt or harm another person, I’m not talking about breaking laws that are there to protect us, but generally be ah, and that you get to live your life any way you want. You didn’t sign up to lead anybody or do anything, but when you take a role, that’s a formal leadership. Well, you are de facto saying I accept that responsibility and when you do that, you then have to set a higher standard for yourself in modeling. What it is you are asked, king of the people that you’re leading hundred percent and if you, if we had leaders that didn’t nothing more than that we’d moved the needle. You know pretty far right absolutely so we talked for reading, don’t leaving yourselves, leading by example, witcher crucial topic soon, as we’ve pointed out, the failures that are out there renown showed the consequences of them are. But let’s, let’s move past this charlie, let’s smooth move just who the the trust and cooperation with that theme in establishing that and even young amplifying yeah two’s to the point. Where all suddenly, we have that in a high performing team built and team to team know whether that’s just individual to the division or department but multiple and working for six. That’s what leaders want right. They want these high performing teams. So how do we go about building that we hung the hears? Oh yeah, all the right things, ourselves yeah? Well, here’s the big conundrum saw a chance that in two ways, but here’s the big conundrum. What people haven’t quite figured out yet is that it is impossible to run an organization. I’m wet, multiple functional areas, finance marketing. I t you know all the sales ops whatever they are, where you can very nice and neatly give them their discrete individual performance goals and objectives, and they are not gonna have to subjugate their their agenda at some point, tend to other functional agendas right, because one plus one plus one plus one does not equal success of the organization. Why? Because resources fluctuate because priorities change, because we have to be a dad captive to our clients, someone’s coming atta us because cove it happens that we have to cut budgets. So you have to have leaders over functional areas who won are deep expert in that functional area, but who fundamentally understand that the team they’re playing on is the c e o s team, it’s for the betterment of the company, not just their functional area too. Much of what happens is you have too many functional leader, saying, pushing pushing pushing and digging in and getting frustrated and mad, because they’ve been given a set of objectives that there’s bus to deliver on and they get tunnel vision about that and they are unable to take their functional hat off, put their company hat on and even if it means giving up certain resources at a point in time to a greater priority or if it means being adaptable or adjusting yeah have to do it and linked integrate company that talks about this jeff winger see over. There ego has a program called compassionate leadership and and yeah he’s one of the first ones. I’ve heard that like put this problem right out in the open, and I can tell yeah as the head of human resources, for you, know many multiple billion dollar companies. You cannot build the compensation system that is fair and equal. You cannot do it because you have to give those individual directors to individual people, but one plus one plus one plus one is never gonna. Add up to the final number eat you it’s impossible. The best you can do is, is you know, set imply maske, clear priorities and objectives put the best kind of compensation plan you can in place and now that you have to count on your leaders in those functional areas to know when they have to be flexible and adaptable and be willing to make a sacrifice in the greater interest of the organization, and that’s a tough go for many leaders to get, but it is, it is, are not solvable. People want perfection in their comp plans and in their goals and objectives and once they’re given them, they want to sit steady like iraq and look at the world we live in today. E leaders, we’re not that smart at the ceo level or top of organizations were not capable of putting a plan in place for a year or look how much changes in a week now. So you know it’s an unrealistic expectation that they you’re systems are gonna solve this problem. For you, leaders, individual people have to solve this problem, and leaders have to be able to communicate. What’s che changed, why it’s changed? What’s the decision is, and they have to due to your point, garner the trust of their people to wear those people, trust that that leader is, you know, given them the straight scoop, and then you have to adapt because of you. Don’t adapt in life race forget about if you don’t adapt at work, but if you don’t adapt in life life’s gonna, take it down yeah you gotta be able to get. Let go of that ideology. You hold so strongly to recognize that we’re in an in an ever changing and faster changing world, and we have to be able to adapt to it. Lubbock. I think the biggest thing I heard they’re the biggest tech rug out from those know as a leader of need, the dropper ego yeah look at the vision of the hallucination a beaut, and this is how collaboration try happens. Is it by giving up our resources to help sort, it’s just being flexible, it’s just being flexible. You know one time, you’ll give him up another time. Somebody’s gonna give him you, but you just you have to be flexible and then the second thing cheat to answer your question, a collaboration. If it’s you also can’t take personally, you can’t take what another person says are doing another functions doing personally, because we make all kinds of stories up where they did this and they said that they don’t believe in. They don’t trust me and they don’t they don’t care about us name there. We we make up so many stories that are not backed base that are not rooted in any kind of fact, and you no, the stress, behaviors come out, and so you know as a as a person when you’re interacting with other humans and their up, particularly when they’re upset, which is the only time it’s really a problem. When somebody’s really upset you have to be able to recognize em up, they are upset. So it’s not me. I’m okay, but they’re upset so now anita to observe them and try to understand you know: what’s got them upset. If I can help them, you know want to try to help them and if I can’t help them at least one out walk away and do no harm because our already upset- and you know not take what they’re doing personally, but what happens is when somebody’s upset and then they spew out at yale, because you either just happened to be there or because they want help and you’re the boss or you or whoever. Just because somebody does, it doesn’t mean you have to own that right. You don’t have to receive that and you don’t get triggered by anything anyway said. Speak cause upset people. I don’t speak truth. So what I mean by that, have you ever been really upset and said something to one of your kids or your spouse, or somebody a fun, never happens now. Right now. I never did when we’re upset. Our words lie because were triggered our our survival mechanism kicks in and and la yeah. We get a thought in our head that our maths tests, something that we don’t actually mean and then, when somebody does, that to us, were all indignant and pissed off and they should have known better, but we all do that. So you have to give grace to people when they’re upset and you have to be able to know, am I upset or they upset ethnic, have to be able to make race. For that. Let somebody be upset without making that your problem and as a leader, if you can master that skill man, you are gonna, be you’re in ago. So far in having people who want to work for you, because you have to allow people to be upset, you have to be able to listen pass. They are words. They have to be able to help them. If you can can and you’ll at the very least you have to you know not get reactive to the fact that they’re already reacting to something, because now both of you are going down, it’s like got angry people can’t help other angry people. Depressed people can’t help other depressed people. It’ll frustrate people can’t help other frustrated people. You have to be able to hold of vision higher than that person can hold in that moment for both themselves and for the ability to solve whatever problem. You know you have in front of you love it. I’m I was archie in when there are situations where are our own could into too much detail cause our work, but our murmurs. There was a situation and ah mm the people who order. He won’t give us off for any reason, unless he was absolutely told to give us up- and I was not work- I didn’t have a whole on my plate at a time in there says something pretty major going on and I walked his office when acid listen like these folks over there and who are part of our organization like they are going to the crown because there’s a hole and I can fill that hole in his am. I need you just in case the just the case for what that is the main priority right over there. There is the just in case so now, you’re a have and now you’re. In an example of how many people are in leadership roles that again are naturally leaders right. That’s it that that’s a foundational lay it out ego, driven or fear based reaction. He had to your request the it was a hundred percent palm. So I I have so many great examples of how not the the lead from this name me of that from people use it right a and if you you know sort of go at him. If your strategy with him is to call him out on that will let me know how that worked out, for you know not in and as mariners. It’s all good, never that an indefinite. But that’s what people do right. Then they decide to go on the attack like sell the ever seen. Oh really upset person or have you been really upset person, and then somebody tells you to just calm down. You want to stick an ice pick in their forehead. Like don’t damages come down. You just come down right. It’s like the worst thing you can set it somebody is upset, is just calm down, so there aren’t just pretty simple strategies, not the least of which is you have to become a really as a leader, a really really good observer of other people rules state of mind and their. You know their state of equanimity, like their their ability to problem, solve to engage in a discussion to think through a situation if they’re triggered upset their off the chain. You’re literally wasting your time to try to force. You know a solution on them. At that moment, you have to know to create a little space, give their mental energy a chance to calm down, create an opportunity to let them talk a little bit about. What’s got them yet, oh so wired and then in in engage them in conversation around a solution from there. But most leaders don’t have that patience number one day already just get reactive right out of the gate night at too reactive people and you’re. Spinning up a lot. Energy and you’re, probably gonna, say something. That’s gonna, fracture trust. You know in that relationship in is gonna set you back here from helping that person come along to beware. They need to be yeah awesome jill. I feel, like we’ve only scratched hour later, we’re just scratching the surface and after the war rough up, but ah before we wrap up here, I want to say to the luster of there it does yeah. It is definitely worthwhile to go ahead and grab a copy of joe’s book and she’s gonna she’s gonna give a blog at the of the show, as we always do. But it’s it’s it’s a short. It’s constant! Don’t let me rephrase that it’s concise, it’s packed of practical tips, much of what you’ve just heard from his past forty ish minutes, and it it it. You know it’s worthwhile to have in your bookcase to go through and having your bookcase or even go ahead and references from time to time when these situations pop up- because this is exactly were young- we need as leaders, we need a bill to come to resource and go okay. I’m feeling this type of situation. I need some practical tools. Oh yeah, the book by ratliff check it out loud. I wrote that book. I said to my kids when I read the book a any I’m gonna write a book about a subject. That’s insanely complex that there’s by the way hundreds of thousands of books written about leadership everytime like the world, need one more written by jay ratliff like. Why would that be true? So I am you know when I read the book. I really sad. I want to write a book that points to something for people to be reflective about her to consider, and that gives him super practical, easy to apply tools and can be read in your favorite coffee shop over a venti cup of coffee. So those are my my objectives in the book when I wrote it now, of course you can’t go to the coffee shop yet to get coughing go home. I read it. Oh so wondered as ass rapper. I do got a couple: ask questions which you know ah and the first one being for new jewel jewel ratliff. What makes a great leader, ah clarity, the ability to see clearly the situations, people, clarity. I mean it when you’re in any situation in your fallen. Somebody, don’t you want them to know they have a clear vision that they have a clear solution to whatever the problem is that they, you know that they actually know how to get you where you know you’re all ago. So I think clarity makes a great leader, and I think this goes without saying, but a leader who leads by example. Now that’s awesome, love it and finally shameless plug time. It’s all were younger book of links. Work people find her and follow you him I’m. So it’s real easy money. My key tenets is simplicity, so it’s jill. Ratliff leadership is my website. Debbie debbie debbie joe ratliff leadership, dotcom simple and on linked in it’s shell ratliff. So I’m not hard to find in a happy to hear from you know, folks that are interested in the subject or the work that I do. I do do executive coaching. I do work with leaders and their teams- and I do am keynote talks as well awesome and for your listeners. Always it’s easy. It’s simple! It’s at moving for leadership, dot com forward, slash one six, one, one sixty one joe thanks for taking your time coming out, talk on me, but was poorly the audience. Member of their thanks thanks scott.