Leading like a Woman to the Top | Lieutenant-General (Retired) Christine Whitecross | Episode 209

Scott McCarthy:
In episode 209 of the Peak Performance Leadership podcast, we speak to lieutenant general retired Christine Whitecross, and she’s gonna talk to you what it’s like to grow up as a leader and a female in the Canadian Armed Forces. It’s all about International Women’s Day today. Are you ready for this? Alright. Let’s do it. Welcome 1. Welcome all to the Peak Performance Leadership podcast, a weekly podcast series dedicated to helping you hit peak performance across the the three domains of leadership. Those being leading yourself, leading your team, and leading your organization. This podcast couples my 20 years of military experience as a senior Canadian army officer with world class guests, bringing you the most complete podcast of leadership going.

Scott McCarthy:
And for more, feel free to check out our website at moving forward leadership.com. And with that, let’s get to the show. Yes. Welcome and welcome all to the Peak Performance Leadership podcast. It is your chief leadership officer, Scott McCarthy. It’s so great to have you tuning into a special episode this week. If you’re a longtime listener of the show, you’re probably wondering what the heck. It’s Tuesday, not Wednesday, Scott.

Scott McCarthy:
Did you set your schedule wrong? No. Today is International Women’s Day if you are following along in real time. And, normally, I release my podcast episodes on Wednesdays, but this week, it’s today for this episode. Because today, we are talking with lieutenant general retired Christine Whitecross. Now she has a long, as you can imagine, history and resume, but let’s just do a couple of the high level facts. 1st female in the Canadian Armed Forces to be promoted to the rank of lieutenant general. And for all of my civilian friends, listeners up there, that is the 2nd highest rank you can achieve as an officer in the Canadian Armed Forces and most militaries actually. She was the 1st female commoner of the NATO Defense College in Rome.

Scott McCarthy:
She is a member of the, Order of Military Merit. As well, she is a 2 time, appointee, I guess you would call it, and list sorry, named to the top 100 influential women in Canada. Not once, twice. That’s right. So she is definitely someone that, you know, resonates with today and what today is all about. And we go deep into reasons for why she joined the forces, her experiences as a brand new officer and, you know, in particular being a female back in those days, how she was able to get past some coworkers who were difficult to work with, and why it’s important and how to stick to the moral high ground, how to get a team to achieve peak performance. We talked about, you know, how she felt a number of times, including when she got promoted to lieutenant general. And and you’ll hear in her a little bit of, you know, imposter syndrome, even that that rank level.

Scott McCarthy:
And then, of course, we had to dive into the ongoing issues within the camera forces regarding the sex sexual misconduct. And if you’re not familiar with general White Cross, she was the 1st general, appointed to really look at this problem and tackle it. And in talking with her, what she brings out, you’re gonna hear something probably what you wouldn’t expect, and then you’re probably gonna hear something from me that you wouldn’t expect telling a very senior officer. So you definitely wanna stick around for that. Alright. You know what? That’s enough. So why don’t you sit back, relax, and enjoy my conversation on this International Women’s Day with lieutenant general retired Christine White Cross. Ma’am, welcome to the Peak Performance Leadership Podcast.

Scott McCarthy:
It is so great to have you here.

Christine Whitecross:
It’s absolutely my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.

Scott McCarthy:
So, you know, you’ve done some incredible things in your military career. Let’s you know, you were the first woman to hit the rank of lieutenant general. You were a nomin no, awarded the top 100 most influential women in Canada, not once, but twice. 1st comma of the NATO Defense College, I do believe, though, who was a female. Let’s go back to the beginning, though. Let’s go right back to day 1. And, you know, what drew you to military life, but not just military life, but being an officer in in the military, which ends up, you know, in that leadership world?

Christine Whitecross:
That’s funny because no one’s ever asked me that particular question. Everybody’s asked me, you know, what made me join and and sort of what was my was my feelings way back then. And so just for context, it was 1982, so it was a tremendous well, geez, 40 years ago now. I was already at Queen’s University. When I was in high school, so before then, I graduated high school in Nova Scotia in 1980. I had mentioned to my father that I wanted to be I wanted to join the military, but I did not wanna be an officer. I said, you know, I had this thought that officers, you know, didn’t have great time and that all the the fun and joy of being in the military rested with the NCMs. That’s how naive I was.

Christine Whitecross:
And, he kinda put a kibosh to that very, very early on and, with the with the knowledge that, you know, I had planned to go to university anyway so that it was gonna be a nonstarter. But when I was in university, prior to university, I actually applied, and I didn’t make the cut, on first try, to be completely blunt. When I was at, in high school in Nova Scotia, a bunch of us went to Halifax to do the, to do the test. And, you know, I didn’t make the top 10%. So I wasn’t chosen to go. So I went to Queen’s University on my own. And while I was walking down Queen’s, Princess Street, you know, Kingston, obviously. So walking down Princess, saw the recruiting center, and I thought I’m gonna go in.

Christine Whitecross:
And I went in, literally got the paperwork, and within a month, I’d already signed up. So I think it was just something that I always wanted to do. And at that moment, it was probably something more along the lines of of proving to myself that I could, and, you know, to be I know everyone says this, but I wouldn’t change a thing from that moment on. I mean, I I’ve had a tremendously fulfilling career and and been able to do a really a lot of great things surrounded by a lot of great people, to be honest. So, there wasn’t any more thought, I think, than that. Just wanted to serve my country. My father was in the military. My brothers were all in the reserves.

Christine Whitecross:
And, I just thought this was a great way to do it.

Scott McCarthy:
No. It’s awesome. That’s awesome. It was very similar to me. Actually, my parents didn’t even know I intended to join. And, the the package arrived in the mail to do all the paperwork, and I filled it all out and sent it back with their knowledge until I told I got the phone call and said, but I need to go to recruiting center in Saint John’s next week. And they’re like, what?

Christine Whitecross:
Actually, I have I have a very similar story because I did not tell them that I had joined until until the day I was being sworn in, and I called them because I was already at university. And I my father, I was doing shift work, and he had just got off night shift. And and I don’t think they really understood what I was trying to say. But there was there was a lot of surprise, I tell you. A lot of surprise.

Scott McCarthy:
No doubt. Now so you’re at Queen, so you finished up, what, another 3 years university. I’d assume summer training in between those years is watch much as what us ROTP go through. And then off you go to your first unit. So when you first, you know, took in a leadership position and role, how did that feel back in those days?

Christine Whitecross:
It you know, it’s it’s funny because I don’t think my colleagues at the university ever had the same opportunities I had because as soon as you left university in the military, you and you finished your training, so my engineer training in Shellac, as soon as you finished all that, you’re actually automatically put in charge of people, resources, you know, policies, whatever, and that, other people don’t get, right from day 1. They, you know, they have to sort of work up to it, build up to it. And my father was a surgeon when he retired in the military. And and so I I spent a lot of time him sort of explaining to me what senior NCMs, what’s the role of a senior NCM, what’s the role of an officer, in on his perspective. So I was sort of going into it thinking that my role was was to be what was ultimately to be a leader, to take care of the care and feeding of my, the people that reported to me, and to make the best decisions that I could. So I already knew going into that that that’s what was my job. But I don’t think anything prepares you to go into your very first job as, for me, I was 21, maybe 22 years old. And I had people working for me that were MWOs, who had been in the service for decades, for longer than I was alive.

Christine Whitecross:
And and that sort of humility that comes from knowing that they’re used to new people coming in all the time and taking over and and and and being in charge. And and even though this is your first time doing it, they were very gracious in ensuring that I understood the lay of the land. I understood how things were working. And they allowed me to to make mistakes, and they also allowed me to make the decisions that I needed to make. And they at no point did I feel as though I was being judged or or looked down upon by the people that were surrounding me, you know, and there are those first couple of tours. Now it wasn’t always easy, I gotta be honest. Not everyone was like that. But but I think for the most part, I mean, I think there was such a great, dependence on teamwork.

Christine Whitecross:
And my first posting was in Germany, in the height of the Cold War. And and so it wasn’t what I would call a normal posting. I mean, every every month you had an exercise and and things were going on. So, Yeah. So I think I learned a lot in terms of, camaraderie, teamwork, and and how your those leadership qualities that I really wanted to instill in myself.

Scott McCarthy:
That’s great. I, you know, I hear so many stories of, you know, difficulties. Although you you did mention that, you know, not everyone was as good as what most of the people were. So how did you get around those those difficult people? You know, I assume back in the eighties, you know, we’re basically at the beginning of women coming into the forces. And no doubt there were some, from what I hear, there was a lot of not a lot, but there was pushback. And obviously, there was a big culture change in in the Canadian Forces at that time. So when you when you came up against that wall of of some individuals, how were you able to get around them so that you can still, you know, move forward, get your points across, still achieve the objective, whatever it needed to get done at that

Christine Whitecross:
time. You know, when you’re young, 21, 22, 23, 24 years old, I think you can go 2 ways. 1, you can just be out and out, ultimately in charge. I’m in charge. My my my rules, my way. Or you can be more conciliatory. And I think I chose the the path of being a little bit more conciliatory in realizing that I didn’t have all the answers, and then I needed to learn as much as possible in those first few years of military. I needed to do a couple of things.

Christine Whitecross:
I needed to understand my occupation, to the best of my abilities. So my tech the technical kind of stuff of your job and understand where, you know, where it lies within within the work that needed to be done and, you know, what influences do I have? What were my, you know, deadlines? Like, what what was it that made me an engineer? And then and then the second part I had to learn in those first couple of years was how do you bring along, you know, a disparate group of people that are working for you, to come in and and and to work with you and and to give you the best support possible. And and in that respect, it really was about, asking for advice, listening to them, trying to understand why they didn’t agree if if if they didn’t agree with something. Or, and then realizing that I wasn’t gonna please everybody. Nobody can. And that there were going to be some people on regrettably, that would never, make me feel as though I was the same as their male counterpart, my male counterpart. And, and I think that realization,

Scott McCarthy:
counterpart. And and I think that

Christine Whitecross:
realization, which took me a while, by the way, didn’t come in a fleeting moment, but it took me a couple of years to realize that, you know, I needed to do a job. I needed to take the emotion out of the job. And, and if people weren’t going to be, treating me with the same respect that my colleagues got, that I needed to be, I I needed to hold the moral high ground. I needed to be, good at what I did and, and and stand my ground. I mean, that took a lot of maturity, and it took a lot of time to figure that out.

Scott McCarthy:
Oh, absolutely. And I I one well, 2 words you said there that I really love, and I often say as well is that moral high ground, right? And essentially keeping sticking to your your principles and your standards. And regardless of, you know, how much mud the other side can sling, doesn’t matter because the reality is end of the day, you’re you stick to your morals and your principles and come out better, in the end. But, it’s definitely difficult sometimes. Right? So for for some leaders out there who who find themselves in those situations, what’s some advice you got to them for, you know, sticking to the moral high ground and making sure that, they they keep on that path?

Christine Whitecross:
I think I mean, you you hit the nail there. It’s it’s about maintaining your own value system. And I you know what? I’m I’m really fortunate that right now I’m the senior mentor for the network, the op the nethenia Athena network out of at Memorial Military College. And one of the things I tell the officer in naval cadets is that your value system that you have right now, you need to ensure that that you carry it through your entire career and not allow people to change that or amend it or twist it or in any way. And that you need to really ensure that what you believe and you know, whether it’s doesn’t matter. Whatever your value system is, you need to maintain that throughout your entire career. In order to do that, you know, counterintuitively, you need to be humble. You need to be humble because you’re not the smartest person in the room half dozen times out of 10.

Christine Whitecross:
You’re not going to be, the one with the answers for everything. And in fact, I would say, in many ways, officers who aren’t as technically proficient as the NCM corps need to really listen to understand how things are influenced throughout the chain of command and and throughout the, you know, the occupation or the job that you’re doing. And and to better understand that, I think you there needs to be a serious look at those personal traits that are not necessarily, the ones that we always talk about, which is, integrity, truth, valor. I mean, I think we need to talk about humility, understanding, compassion, strength, your ability to communicate, your ability to to to listen and and to really engage people. I think those are the kind of values that we need to be looking at.

Scott McCarthy:
Yeah. Definitely humility. And, the tagline for the show is a lead don’t boss, which, you know, is wrapped around humility, because you’ve said it, you know, amazingly as yourself. We are not the smartest people in the in the room, but we’re surrounded by really smart people. But as our job as leaders is to extract that greatness from each one of those and bring it together and then, you know, essentially make a decision to, you know, how we’re gonna move forward on whatever problem we’re facing that day. When you were operating now, you were, you operate in Afghanistan much like myself. How how did you go about doing that when you’re working in an environment where, you know, there’s multiple cultures going on and not every culture, not every place views, senior senior leaders and not views, not senior women in leadership roles in the same light? Did you come across any experiences where you had to deal with that type of thing, and how did you get past it to go after go after the job, really?

Christine Whitecross:
I mean, the answer the short answer is yes. I mean, you do face people that don’t necessarily espouse the same type of value system that we as Canadians do, you know, for the for the greater part. And I and I would say some even some western nations don’t necessarily mean and it’s not because I think it’s meant to be, hostile or or or or, I don’t know, somehow negative. But, in many cases, they’re not exposed to it. I mean, some nations don’t have women in their military. Some nations, you know, the the role of the woman is completely different. So I, you know, when you go to a place like Afghanistan, you need to understand the culture that you’re going into and then the nations that you’re working with. And I and not not to give them excuses.

Christine Whitecross:
You know, I would never do that. But to understand where they’re coming from so that you can tackle the issues, in the best way possible. So, you know, if you’re working with some coalition forces that have never seen a woman, general officer, then, I mean, you need to be again, you gotta hold the moral high ground, but you also need to, be proficient in what you do, and you need to work hard to be able to communicate, what you know, whether it’s it’s verbal or or in writing or or through, through the way you’re dressed, the way you the way you your deportment, the way you carry yourself, the way you speak to people, how you look at them in the eye or not. And so that you can show them that I respect you for who you are, but be strong enough to know that you still have a job to do and that you need to do it. And then to do that, it means, you know, I respect who you are, but, you know, I’m what I’m expecting is that you respect that I’m coming from a country that this is, this is the norm. And that, I mean, we’re here to do a job and we’re here to do it well. And so we need to work together to do that. I have had that discussion with some people.

Christine Whitecross:
I would say, generally, it goes okay, but not all the time. And in those cases where it doesn’t necessarily go okay, I mean, you still you got a job to do, and you just gotta do it. You know? And and you you might be screened as somebody a little bit less, effective or less easy to get along with, but those are things you just gotta live with.

Scott McCarthy:
When I deployed, to Kandahar, it was 2009, and, I was with the operational mentoring and liaison team. So, for the audience out there, we were embedded with the Afghan National Army for 7 straight months, you know, day in, day out, working with them as advisers and mentors. And where my team actually had the 1st female mentor, that went in. And, you know, she she had some rough days, but end of the day, she was she was able to get the, get the job done and get through them what needed to get done. I would say some of them were very open, but you can see the total difference in culture at first. Right? It was a it was a bit of a shock for a bit of a shock for them when when, our team showed up and there was a female with us. And then they realized that she was gonna be, you know, providing advice and guidance to them on their daily on their daily basis. So, it’s it’s definitely They’re

Christine Whitecross:
able to see how you I was gonna say they’re able to see how you treat your colleagues, and and how you respect them and how you value their opinions. And I think that goes a long way, to showing other people sort of who we are and what we espouse in terms of our own values.

Scott McCarthy:
100%. And that and, actually, that’s a great point is that in front of, of the, of the Afghan soldiers, we never criticized, we never questioned or anything because we realized that could potentially give a crack to their trust of her and her ability to do her job. So whenever we were in front of them, it was always 100% support. And then when we were back in our office area or so alone type thing, it was like, okay, let’s let’s have a chat about this situation because, I don’t actually see eye to eye with you right now on it. Yeah. But that’s, you know, that’s Yeah. That’s about being good team members and good, you know, good teamwork. Right? Absolutely.

Scott McCarthy:
Absolutely. With all your experience, no doubt you’ve been obviously in charge of, you know, giant organizations, all, across, you know, multiple different layers within the forces in NATO and so on and so forth. And one of the themes that keeps coming up with the audience is, you know, how do I get my team working together better? So from your from your from your experience, you know, for the leaders out there, especially the female leaders out there that are listening here today, what’s your advice then? How can they get their team to gel better and achieve perform performance wherever, you know, whatever industry or, you know, however, whatever type of organization they work in?

Christine Whitecross:
I mean, it’s a good question, but and there’s nothing more satisfying than bringing a disparate group of people together to work together for a common purpose. Right? And and we do that every day in the military or not me anymore. I’m retired. But, I mean, that that’s a daily occurrence. But my recommendation is is would always be the same. The first thing you really first of all, you need to surround your people by people who are different and and different not just in the way they look and the way they speak, but in the way they think. So that means different age groups, different understandings of of, of the problem, because without that, you’re just gonna have the same old solutions that you’ve had for years, and some of them are less effective than others. And so you bring this disparate group together, and then you you really have to learn who’s in there and understand what their strengths and weaknesses are as a group.

Christine Whitecross:
Because as a group, my strength could be overcome by your weakness, and your weakness can be over and your my weakness can be overcome by your strength. And I think I as a leader, you need to understand that. Because if you don’t understand where the gaps are in a group now, you know, take a step back here. This is really only all that important if it’s, you know, a crisis situation and and, you know, and you’re going out and you’re doing some pretty dangerous things. But even if you’re making new policies or whatever or coming together there to understand a a new problem, you know, something even like the pandemic or something. I mean, if you if there are gaps in the group think, then they’ll those need to be filled, or you need to at least understand them and then have some mitigating strategies in order to overcome them. But everybody needs to understand sort of where they are in the group and that they’re that they’re welcome, they’re respected, and their and their commentary and and, knowledge is is is gonna be of benefit to the final solution. So listen, always number one thing is always to listen to what they have to say and to and but you as a leader, ultimately, you would need to make the decision.

Christine Whitecross:
So you’re not again, you’re not that smartest person in the room, but you need to take in all of that information. You need to be able to, you need to be able to, collate it, understand it better, and then sort of focus it in where it influences your your decision making, prospects. And that means going back and forth and and discussing with the group and and then making them feel like they’re a part of the solution. And in those areas that you’re not going to be able to, do say what somebody or a or a group of people have wanted, then you need to be able to to expand upon that. And you need to tell them why. Because they have a right to know, why you’re taking a different road than what they had envisioned, especially if you’ve been working down that, you know, area, you know, more information coming in or whatever. So it’s really about treating people, getting to know who’s in the group, treating them with with respect, listening to what they have to to say, engage with them throughout the process, and then make sure that they’re that they’re on board when it comes to the final analysis. But, ultimately, you need to make the decisions.

Christine Whitecross:
And you need to be a good communicator. I mean, I I you know, I’ve I’ve met a lot of really incredibly talented and smart leaders who had difficulty discuss like, putting into words what it was they were trying to achieve. And you need to be able to do that. You need to be able to ensure that this disparate group understand a common goal. They they need to understand where they’re going and where they’re going as a group. And that’s probably one of the first steps. I don’t think there’s any silver bullet. I think it really is it’s about how you treat people and how you bring them together and sort of ensure that they’re that they’re listened to.

Scott McCarthy:
No. It’s, excellent advice. And I I I can hear some people question or like, or get confused, I should say in that, like, the first thing you started off with was you need a different group, they’re like, wait out, you come from military background, don’t it? Isn’t everyone the same? Doesn’t everyone think identical, etcetera? There’s so many misconceptions about what we do on a daily basis, which I enjoy clarifying for the rest of the world out there is like, no, we don’t have exactly everyone the same. No. Not everyone thinks exactly the same. And it’s not as always as simple as simply giving an order to go and it actually happening. So it takes a lot more work than that, which is, oh, ironically, very similar to Civilian World. So

Christine Whitecross:
I I Absolutely. And if you don’t take yeah. I was gonna say that if you don’t take the time when you first come online with a new group to get to know them and to and to get them to know you, I mean, at that at that very point, at the very start point, you I mean, you will have a far better working, teamwork, approach to business, especially in a crisis, than had you not taken that time to really get to know the folks that work for you.

Scott McCarthy:
So I’ve talked about my routine and how I go about doing that when I’ve taken over a new team, a new organization, whatever. I’d like to get your input. Did did you have a routine that you would go through, to get to know your new team members, or did you kinda just let it go ad hoc, play by ear type?

Christine Whitecross:
No. I I generally did the same thing pretty much every time. I I, took 6 months. I gave myself generally 6 months to really understand how organization works. And I wanted to understand, the processes within the organization in term you know, the decision making process or the the approval process, whatever it was, depending on the organization. And then and then I so I wanted to understand the process. And then and then at that point, when I think I kinda got it, and I’ve been working with people for a couple of weeks or a couple of months, then I bring I bring this first and second line folks. So those report to me and those that report to my direct reports.

Christine Whitecross:
And I get to know them, a lot better, but I ask them 3 questions. The first question is always, what is it about this organization that you love? The second one is always, what is it about this organization that that that you don’t like? And if you were me, the commandant, the COO, the commander, whatever, what’s one thing that you would change? And then that gave me the opportunity to have a better understanding of and then, of course, like, I go into, you know, what are your responsibilities and how that works. And then that gave me a better understanding of those areas that are really needed to pay attention to, and those areas where I I I didn’t. Because, generally, the part that people like is is, you know, there’s probably 2 or 3 1 or 2 examples that come out and they’re consistent. So you know that there’s there’s certain things that you don’t really have to pay too much attention to because they’re already they’re already good and people are already doing it. But those areas that people really dislike or or this if they could be the boss, what kind of change would they make? I think you need to really focus in on those things, for a couple of reasons, not the least of which is, you ask the question, now what are you gonna do with the with the answer sort of thing and let your people know about that. But it gives you a start point on how is it that the organization is really functioning, process independent? I mean, are they are do you have to look at the personalities? I mean, because as you know, in a bureaucratic system, sometimes personality slow things down more than process. And so how do you you know, what is it that that you need to spend time on in order to make things better, not just for the institution, but for your group? So that generally, that’s what I do.

Christine Whitecross:
I’m also a really huge believer in, get togethers, to acknowledge the great work that people are doing, you know, be it down town halls or or even I’m, I’m pretty well known for my bringing the direct reports from breakfast, say, once a quarter, go to a restaurant, sit down and and have a chat and and socialize a little bit. But within the work constraints, within the work environment as well, and just sort of doing that, because, I mean, people need to know who you are and that you’re that you’re human. And they and conversely, I need to know who they are and sort of, on a on a more personal level.

Scott McCarthy:
I I I like that last part. You know? Gotta show them that you’re human, and that, you know, you you bleed just like they bleed. Right? And you have interests and hobbies and, you know, show that your true self. I was reading a book for a future guest, and that was actually the last chapter I read. And and what he was saying was that if you hide who you are, your people will smell that a while away, and then you’re not going to be able to actually operate at the same levels if you just be yourself day in, day out and not try to be this, you know, 2 faced person, not trying to say 2 faces and say one thing and do another, but rather, you know, have that alter ego where you show up to work. You’re one person. You go home. You’re another person, because it all gets wrapped up eventually.

Scott McCarthy:
So and people will see that. So

Christine Whitecross:
The people be yeah. People see that. They see a facade. They they you know? And and people put a lot of credits in trust. And it’s difficult to trust somebody who you’re not if you’re not sure which persona they’re using that particular day. I had a piece of advice from my one of my very first bosses back in 1985, I think. I was a lieutenant and, I was doing some contact training. He was a major and, I was having some really rough time for for whatever reason.

Christine Whitecross:
It was a it was a personal thing. And he came to me one day and he said, you know, Chris, people generally see you and they see you. You’re happy. You’re you like to joke. You, you know, you work hard, but you’re really pleasant. And when you’re kinda in this little what at that moment, I was exuding a lot of, you know, sadness. I was upset and all that. People started getting worried, and I I didn’t I didn’t catch that at first.

Christine Whitecross:
But his his best piece of advice he gave me was, don’t pretend to be somebody you’re not. And if you are going to be certainly as an officer, if you’re going to be going through something, you need to ensure that your folks know what’s going on, or they’re gonna be really uncomfortable because you’re now exhibiting signs or characteristics that are not necessarily your normal. And so that again, that talks about trust, talks about openness, talks about awareness, your own personal awareness of how you’re affecting other people and how you’re influencing them. And, you know, that’s act that was actually a really great piece of advice.

Scott McCarthy:
It’s awesome. I’d like to change gears a little bit. So you we just brought we just went back to 1985. I’d like to jump forward, actually, 30 years. 26 May 2015, the day you got promoted Lieutenant General, the 2nd highest rank of the King of Armed Forces, 1 below the CDS, the general. What was going through you at that time when when you got that 3rd leaf pinned on your shoulders?

Christine Whitecross:
I mean, it, was a little bit surreal, to be honest. I mean, it was the first time that I got promoted. My parents were there. My my husband, one of my children was there. I, you know, I was asked to invite some people that I knew that I’d, you know, that I’d known throughout my career. So it it was, I think, necessarily made to be a significant event. And, you know, the CVS is the one that pins on for the 3 stars. And while in fact, the CVS likes to pin on for all of the general officers, and I and I think that’s a great tradition.

Christine Whitecross:
And then kind of that realization that, wow, there’s gonna be a lot expected of me in the next little while. You know, you know, and let’s let’s take it back to 2015, the context, of course, I had been running the strategic response team on sexual misconduct. And I was about to start as chief military personnel dealing with retention, and recruiting issues, the issues that were happening in terms of the sexual misconduct, and a whole slew of other HR issues. And for a little while, it was just a little bit overwhelming, thinking, holy, jump in. And then, you know, and then you you kind of realize that you’re surrounded by tremendously talented people and you work your way through it. You know, at no point did I ever think that I was not ready, because I think the military does a great job of ensuring that you have those competencies and skills that you need, from appointment to appointment and rank to rank. And so, you know, 30 at that time, it was probably 33 or 34 years of service, 32 years of service, maybe. It it was, you know, just you know, it’s kinda like when you got promoted, to your last rank.

Christine Whitecross:
And you and you kinda think, well, that’s really cool. And then you go, holy crap. I got a lot of work to do. Then you realize that I can do this.

Scott McCarthy:
Awesome. So it was essentially I wouldn’t say just like every other rank, but, you know, it was it was very similar. You know, you kinda just had to had to process it, and then it was like, okay. Time time’s up. Let’s move on. Let’s let’s go.

Christine Whitecross:
Pretty much. Pretty much.

Scott McCarthy:
Now you you did mention that you’re you’re heading up the, you know, the sexual misconduct response that was, that was ongoing, you know, and everything that wraps up around that, which sadly still good, you know, carries on to today. As a female, you know, how hard would would that was that task for you to to grow through that? And and or or, you know, was it was it an honor to do do you have that task to, you know, do that response to, you know, help the other women that have been in the forces to to I wouldn’t say move on, but rather how we as an organization move forward with this.

Christine Whitecross:
So the truth is that I think there was a spectrum of emotions that are coming from me at the time because I so general Lawson was a CDS. I was a 2 star, at the time. I was the only fema female 2 star, and and when I was told that I was going to be, addressing this insidious issue, my knee jerk reaction was, you’ve got to be joking. You’re picking me because I’m the senior woman. That was my first knee jerk reaction. And I had to sit back, and really think about it and contemplate it a little bit and discuss it with some of my colleagues. The predominant of them were male. And said, you know, it looks like I’m taking on this job.

Christine Whitecross:
And first, the sense of relief that wasn’t them, but then but then, you know, it’s one of those who else? Like, who else is gonna do it? Who else has any of the background or the understanding of some of these issues than me.

Scott McCarthy:
I

Christine Whitecross:
mean, it hasn’t been, all, what’s the expression, rainbows and unicorns for my 39 years of service. I mean, I had some difficult times predominantly in the in the beginning. And I but not as bad as some. You know, I’ll put it out there. But I did understand. And so I you know, I it took me, you know, and I wouldn’t say a day, but it it took me, you know, some grown up thinking, if I can use that word or that comment, to say I am the best one suited to lead this right now. And so, once I finally got to that space, then I was actually quite proud to be able to do it because there are very few times in a military career, or any public service career, or career, period, I think that you will have the ability to fundamentally help to change an institution where it’s failing. And I had I had that chance.

Christine Whitecross:
Now did I do a great job? I would say I did a passable job, but not a stellar job, and and happy to discuss that as well if it’s important. But, you know, and which is and and I’m still very, very disappointed, the fact that we’re dealing with these sorts of issues today, 2022. And the last couple of years have been really, really heart wrenching for any member in uniform and. But ultimately, I think that things are getting better, and they have to get better. And the only reason why they’re getting better is because people are talking about it, and they’re not afraid to talk about it. And, you know, at some point I’ve I’ve said years ago, to me success is when my kids I have 2 daughters and a stepdaughter and now a daughter-in-law. When my daughters never have to deal with this kind of stuff or their daughters never have to deal with this kind of stuff, That’s success to me. You know, it won’t be in my generation, and doubtful it’ll be in yours.

Christine Whitecross:
But it’s coming. It’s coming.

Scott McCarthy:
Well, you know what I’ll say to you is, us leaders, we’re biggest critics. We never do anything good enough as far as we’re concerned. We never have enough time, to do what we want to do. We never have enough resources, you know, keep keep finding it. But the reality is, you you set conditions for success when success comes. So that to me says says, you know what, you know, you can sleep good at night doing the job that you did. When so when you’re in the middle of a culture change as large as what the calf has to go through and plenty of organizations have to go through the same thing. Look at Uber, look at, Apple, Google, you know, these companies, you know, massive international companies have to go through, I wouldn’t say, you know, same level, but very still very similar types of, you know, change, culture change.

Scott McCarthy:
It takes a long time. It’s not one foul swoop of a new CEO gets parachuted, and all of a sudden, everything’s, as you said, unicorns and rainbows. Right? It takes time. It takes it takes, change, and one of the probably one of the biggest things with the forces is that it has to get bred, you know, completely internal just due to the way the rank structure is and stuff like this that you’re you’re changing a whole generation of members. So you you set those conditions. You set the conditions for fall

Christine Whitecross:
You’re very kind.

Scott McCarthy:
For for how long.

Christine Whitecross:
Scott. No. I appreciate that. I mean Right. I know for a fact that some great work was done. But I also know for a fact that, you know, as, as senior leaders I mean, I’ll I also know that a change like this requires a belief that a change is required. And, I I think that took a little bit longer than I had anticipated. For sure.

Christine Whitecross:
No doubt. Now one

Scott McCarthy:
last one last question here that I wanna hit on. One last theme, I guess, I should say is that, obviously, this was all about culture change, And and that’s another big topic at at Peak Performance Leadership, the podcast, as well as my, ecosystem around moving forward leadership is is culture and organizational culture. How do leaders establish, you know, great cultures to enable their people and organizations to achieve great things? So what were some of the lessons you learned about, you know, trying to make such a monumental culture shift in such a large organizations that leaders out there can take today and, you know, apply to their organizations tomorrow?

Christine Whitecross:
I think, fundamentally, you need to make it personal. And, so if you go back to the culture shift of the Canadian Armed Forces back in 2015, there was a requirement to make it personal in that people understood on a personal level that these issues are are they may not affect you personally. Like, they may not affect you. They may not be a part of your sphere. And you may say that you’ve never seen it, but it exists within your watch. And just because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean that it hasn’t unduly influenced a number of things that have happened while you were in the while you were in the chair. And and that that’s a difficult that’s a difficult thing to believe. You know what? Because it fundamentally, I mean, 95% of the folks are really good people.

Christine Whitecross:
I mean, really good people. And when they say they don’t see it, it’s because they didn’t see it, but it existed. And then for them to change that paradigm, that understanding of a fundamental understanding of what was happening in their own watch, I mean, that that is almost a significant emotional event in and of itself. So I think you need to make it personal. Obviously, that’s a little bit more severe than maybe other institution or cultural changes that that people have tried to come by, but you need to make it personal. And then after that, you need to ensure that everybody is going in the same direction. And, you know, and and even though you’ve said some really nice nice things, the truth is not everyone went in the right in the same direction back in 2015. And I think, you know, I I I try to go back and figure out whether or not there were opportunities for me to do a vector check more often or otherwise.

Christine Whitecross:
And, you know, and and I sometimes I come up I come up empty, but, if the institution isn’t isn’t going down one road as a group, then you’re not gonna make those fundamental changes. And so make it personal. Ensure that everybody’s going in the same direction. Keep the communications open. Keep the dialogue open. And don’t be afraid to have those really hard discussions.

Scott McCarthy:
Love it. Absolutely love it. That’s, solid advice out there for sure. And then as we wind down the show here, I do got 2 last questions for you. The second last one is a question I ask all the guests here at the podcast. And that is according to you, Christian White Cross. What makes a great leader?

Christine Whitecross:
What makes a great leader? You know, I I don’t think it’s, so there’s this comment about nurture and, and so do you so learned behavior is something you’re born with. I think it’s a bit of both, and I think it’s it’s somebody who honestly cares about other people, and is is able, to bring a group together to understand the common goal and to march toward that. And realizing that you’re just you might be in charge, but you’re you’re just one person out of many. And that is completely counterintuitive to many people thinking that to be a leader means you need you need to be out and above and and in front. You know, I honestly believe it’s it’s the person that is affecting and influencing from any vantage point. I mean, you could be the most junior person in a group, but leading in on a whole bunch of things. And and I and that and the fact that you recognize that and that you encourage it and develop it and embrace it, I think that makes us all better leaders.

Scott McCarthy:
Awesome. Love it. Absolutely love it. Finally, this is normally where I give people the opportunity to plug their stuff, but you’re retired. I don’t think you have anything to plug to plug. But if there’s something that you would like to mention for the audience out there, you know, resource, something to check out, you know, feel free to give something a shameless plug right now.

Christine Whitecross:
The only thing I would say, and and I offer this to everybody is, take care of yourselves. This is a difficult time, in the country. It’s a different difficult time for the Canadian Armed Forces members, uniformed members, and our civilian members, of course. And, you need to make sure that you take care of yourself so that you are able to take care of those that are that you’re responsible for. And and, you know, physically, emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, it doesn’t matter. Just make sure you take care of yourself because we need you. We need the the group that’s coming up. We need them.

Christine Whitecross:
We need them for the long haul, and we need to to acknowledge that. Sometimes it takes a little bit more to get us going in the morning, and, I think we need to embrace that.

Scott McCarthy:
It’s why they say to put your oxygen mask on first in those airplane you know, in those safety briefings. Right? And in fact, I always, you know, I talk about lead yourself, and that’s exactly the what you’re getting at right there. So thank you for those kind words. Ma’am, as we wrap up here, I wanna take one last chance to thank you. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for agreeing to it on this on this day. You know, it is this show will be released on the International Women’s Day, and to recognize yourself, you know, such a decorated retired general. It’s it’s an honor for me to have you and really assist Sean today, so thank you for taking some time.

Christine Whitecross:
Thanks, Scott. That’s really kind, and, congratulations to all the great work that you guys are doing and, you know, and to the new generation. And we got some pretty pretty top notch people coming up.

Scott McCarthy:
And that’s a wrap for this episode, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting the Peak Performance Leadership podcast. But you know what you could do to truly support the podcast and know that’s not leaving a rating and review? It’s simply helping a friend, and that is helping a friend by sharing this episode with them if you think this would resonate with them and help them elevate their performance level, whether that’s within themselves, their teams, or their organization. So do that. Help me help a friend win win all around and hey, you look like a great friend at the same time. So just hit that little share button on your app and then feel free to fire this episode to anyone that you feel would benefit from it. Finally, there’s always more.

Scott McCarthy:
There’s always more lessons around being the highest performing leader that you can possibly be, whether that’s for yourself, your team, or your organization. So why don’t you subscribe? Subscribe to the show via movingforwardleadership.comforward/subscribe. Until next time, lead, don’t boss, and thanks for coming out. Take care now.