Understanding Character Based Leadership | Jennifer Allen & Stephen Virgin | Episode 240

Scott McCarthy [00:00:00]:
Today on episode 240 of the Peak Performance Leadership Podcast, we speak to Jennifer Allen and Steve Virgen, and they’re gonna tell you why. Character above all

Scott McCarthy [00:00:10]:
things else is the most important thing in

Scott McCarthy [00:00:14]:
being a successful leader. That’s right, folks. It’s all about character today. Are you ready for this? Alright. Let’s do it.

Scott McCarthy [00:00:31]:
Welcome 1. Welcome all to the Peak Performance Leadership Podcast, A weekly podcast series dedicated to helping you hit peak performance across the 3 domains of leadership. Those being leading yourself, leading your team, and leading your organization. This podcast couples my 20 years of military experience as a senior Canadian army officer with world class guests bring you the most complete podcast of leadership going. And for more, feel free to Check out our website at movingforwardleadership.com. And with that, let’s get to the show. Yes. Welcome 1.

Scott McCarthy [00:01:15]:
Welcome all to the Peak Performance Leadership Podcast. It is your

Scott McCarthy [00:01:19]:
chief leadership officer here, Scott McCarthy, and thanks for coming out. Now before we dive into today’s show, I will say to you if you’re listening in real time, my apologies. This one’s late. It’s on me. And I guess the reason for it is that I’m currently traveling for my day job. So greetings from Germany. If you’re a German listener out there, please let me know. I would definitely love to hear where you’re from and that you’re tuning in to this show because, Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:01:53]:
There are people from Germany who listen to this show. So that’s you. Thank you. Thanks for the great hospitality in your beautiful country. I absolutely love it here. And that’s why this show is a little bit late this week, but nonetheless, we’re here. We’re there. We’re here, And I got an amazing episode lineup for you folks today.

Scott McCarthy [00:02:16]:
And we’re talking to 2 people, and I love this type of guess, they have no motivation. Zero results, nada, none. They simply are leadership trainers for the Canadian government, and they they train in the character leadership, and we’ll get into that, obviously, what it is and how you can apply it, so on and so forth, but they’re not selling anything. That’s the beauty. I love talking to people who are simply just passionate like myself about this topic and helping people become better leaders. This is why the show exists, to help you become a better leader, and that’s why Jen and Steve both do what they do. It is awesome. And today, we get into talking about character leadership.

Scott McCarthy [00:03:16]:
And, you know, we get into exactly what character leadership is, how we can define it, how we actually use, you know, the traits and aspects of character leadership. Okay. Also get into what it’s not. Alright. We need to the different character leadership model aspects and how crucial self awareness is in this type of leadership model. We also talk about how you can explore temperance and transcendence, which are two aspects of leadership, which even I realize we don’t talk about much. And then finally, we talk about and here’s where the money is, ladies and gentlemen, how you can train in the areas where you’re struggling as a leader. Okay? So If you’re listening to the show, I would highly encourage you to hit pause and go to forward slash 240.

Scott McCarthy [00:04:17]:
And what you’re gonna find there is the model self, a photo of the model so that you can actually kinda go along. Now, obviously, if you’re running or walking or driving, this might not be the safest time to do so. So okay. Come back to that. But if you’re not, if you’re kind of just sitting there, go to lead don’t boss forward slash two forty. And there, you will see the model in its whole entirety. Alright? And you’ll be able to follow along much better. Okay? The model is there for you.

Scott McCarthy [00:04:52]:
But, before we dive in, I will just Briefly let you know a bit about our guest today. Jen Jennifer Allen, she started off in the private sector, But she joined the Canadian public service in 2007 and worked, you know, across multiple departments before joining, the CRA in 2017. She’s been focusing on inclusive design, process improvement, change management, But now she’s the assistant director for character leadership development within the Canadian Revenue Agency. She’s got a bachelor’s degree, And she’s just so passionate about this topic. Meanwhile, Steve, he’s Jennifer’s boss. He’s the director of character based leadership within the CRA, but he is not a government employee for life well per se, but rather He was in the Canadian Navy, so he had a career in the Canadian Navy. And one of his last jobs was the deputy commander of the Canadian Special Forces Command or CAN SOFCOM for you military savvy folks out there. So leadership, little bit important to what he does.

Scott McCarthy [00:06:09]:
And now he’s just passionate about developing other leaders for the CRA within this character leadership based model, and that’s what he does day in, day out. Let me tell you folks you’re going to get a lot out of this. So with further ado, why don’t you sit back, relax, and enjoy my conversation with Steve and Jen all about character based leadership.

Scott McCarthy [00:06:50]:
Jed, Steve, welcome to the show. It’s so great to have you both here today.

Stephen Virgin [00:06:55]:
Hi. Thanks for having us.

Scott McCarthy [00:06:58]:
So we are talking about character leadership or character based leadership today with you 2 fine folk. I guess, I had to kick off with, like, how did you guys get involved with this in the 1st place? You know, based on your backgrounds, it’s not exactly your your your focus, I guess. But I would love to know where this came from, for you both. So when we kick off with that, and then we’ll go from there.

Stephen Virgin [00:07:23]:
Sure. Maybe, Jen, I’ll start just because I was first in and then and then Jen Jen was one of the the early adopters to join the team. So For for me, it was it was literally a job poster. I see I saw this job poster for the the director for character leadership, And the poster itself really stood out. It was unique. It wasn’t a typical government poster. It basically said, We need someone to come build a team, build a strategy, bring character into the Canada Revenue Agency as a, you know, as a leadership practice. So just write us a letter and tell us why you think you’d be a good person for the job.

Stephen Virgin [00:08:00]:
And that is very nontraditional. So that that intrigued me. I I I I next thing you know, I’m I’m in the job, and then next thing you know, I’ve got this really unique opportunity in in the work Life to build a team and do something really interesting with respect to leadership. And and then you could See the calling in people like Jen, who were one of the first early adopters who said, wow. Like, I I can see myself living in this space, and Jen was one of the first ones to knock on my door at 395 terminal in Ottawa. And, Jen, over to you.

Jennifer Allen [00:08:42]:
Yeah. I I first heard about it, at work, And I was in a traditional, assistant director operational role. And when I first became a manager, I realized how much I didn’t know. Like, when I was an employee, I thought I got this. It’s gonna be easy. And then and then I get into the role and I’m like, oh, wow. This is a whole lot more than I thought that I had bargained for. And I have a business degree, like, I thought I was all ready for this.

Jennifer Allen [00:09:09]:
And when I heard about character leadership, I was doing some leadership course is on my own outside of working hours. And when I heard about this, I thought, oh, this was the thing I’m I’m missing. Like, I needed this part. It’s not just, you know, The skills and know how to do the job. It’s it’s the, like, what are you, what are you activating, we say, in character leadership When when you’re making a decision. And, I met with Steve, and I was like, I’m all in. I wanna be a part of this. This is gonna be amazing and bring about a lot of really positive change and support leaders, and just making the job easier for them and for their teams.

Jennifer Allen [00:09:46]:
So that’s how I got involved.

Scott McCarthy [00:09:48]:
That’s so funny

Stephen Virgin [00:09:49]:
when we get out of this.

Scott McCarthy [00:09:50]:
Oh. I I was gonna say it’s just so funny, Jen speaking there about, like, we think we know it all, and then suddenly we get into the job, and then it was like, wow. I don’t know squat. So just as a funny anecdotal anecdotal story I often speak, is that, I I’m a graduate with the Royal Military College, so I graduated from the college in 06 after 5 years. And I remember this still clear as if it was is yesterday. My literally last day on the campus, handing my my my RMC stuff in, and and the, supply sergeant who was there that was, you know, taking all in. He’s like, alright, sirs and ma’am, remember, you don’t know Jack. And then, well, he used a different word than Jack.

Scott McCarthy [00:10:32]:
But it just stuck to me. It’s like you know? It’s just like you don’t know anything. You’re right. And and I’ve kinda had that mentality here going up through the ranks now all the way up to where I’m at today is a left and a current one in, you know, in a in a pretty, high intense job, and stuff like this. And and it doesn’t mean I’m stupid or anything. It just means that, you know, I have to look at it with eyes of, you know, curiosity. Right? And be open minded to what everyone else has to say and their experiences and all that stuff. So it it’s so true, though.

Scott McCarthy [00:11:03]:
We know so little when we get in the role. Sorry, Steve. You’re gonna say something afterwards.

Stephen Virgin [00:11:08]:
Yeah. I know. I was I was, you know, just gonna say we started out, and there was only a few of us. And now we’re we’re almost a of of 40 doing the the the total leadership implementation at at at CRA. But, you know, similar to yourself and and to Jen’s comment, you know, I’m I’m ex military. And I I guess there was a time when I probably thought I had it figured out, and it wasn’t till after that time in a similar vein, I realized I didn’t. But, you know, it’s interesting you mentioned curiosity, and we can we can chat a bit about the the model, the thought leaders from Ivy who who brought this This this approach forward, but curiosity is a virtue. And and it’s one of the one of the assistant directors in our team who works With, with Jen and our colleagues, she was attending a a leadership series the other day, and one of the people speaking, was the chief strategy officer for the Cleveland Browns.

Stephen Virgin [00:12:02]:
I’m a Cleveland Browns football fan. She knew that, so she sent me the poster for this, Leadership podcast or leadership presentation she was attending. But then I was chatting with her yesterday, and she said one of his sort of values, was relentless curiosity. And that was one of the big things that that he pitched. And, but yeah. I mean, curiosity, it’s it’s fundamental. We can’t we can’t get stale.

Jennifer Allen [00:12:28]:
Mhmm.

Scott McCarthy [00:12:30]:
No. It’s awesome. Now So when we talk about character of leadership, like, I guess, for the listener out there, like, what exactly are we talking about here. You know, what’s that mean, character? Because we hear about all kinds of different leadership styles and, you know, you know, servant leaders and transformational leaders, and this leader, and that leader. And a listener must be like, oh, my head’s gonna explode. Now we’re talking about yet another style of leadership. But I would love to know, you know, exactly what is character leadership out there for the listeners so that they can, you know, grasp it, and then we can carry on the conversation.

Stephen Virgin [00:13:05]:
Let let me see if I can do it justice in, like, 60 seconds and then another 60 seconds for Jen and take 10 years of research and and put it out there real quick. So it’s it’s certainly not a style. I mean, there are leadership styles. You’re a professional military officer. Jen’s a professional HR practitioner. There’s there’s different approaches, and I agree with you. There’s you know, leadership became an industry, what, 10, 15 years ago. There’s there’s sound bites on leadership.

Stephen Virgin [00:13:30]:
It’s it’s everywhere. And I think what’s really Appealing about the character approach is it is, certainly in my view, the deepest, richest Approach to leadership that I’ve ever seen. I I don’t think it’s, you know, it’s there’s there it’s it’s not to, you know, indict any other forms or approaches to leadership, but It’s it’s 10 years of deep research, and it’s got philosophical roots, you know, anthropology, philosophy. It started back in 2008 where where, you know, people were often blaming failures of of strategic failures on failures of competence. And and and you can include in there Enron and and and all kinds of other the financial crisis. And these researchers, Doctor Cross and doctor Seitz, Gantz, and others at Ivy said no. It’s character. So they did a a 10 year research model, came up with an approach.

Stephen Virgin [00:14:25]:
And the biggest thing I’d say, the biggest takeaway, and I’ll pass to Jen, is that their the character models approach is comprised of virtues, values, and traits. And the biggest thing is They’re virtuous, which means we all possess them. So everything that you would see in this model, if you were to look it up, Because it’s virtuous in nature. It could be you, Scott, Jen, me, the CEO, the kid working at the drive through. We all possess these virtuous traits like curiosity. The question is, are we activating them and using them Towards judgment and decision making in our everyday approach to leadership. Jen.

Jennifer Allen [00:15:06]:
And when I also I was nodding my head, although I realized that viewers Can’t, our listeners can’t see that. It’s really been, the other piece I would add to that is that it can all be developed. So we might have particular areas of strength, and potential areas of excess on the wheel, but and we’ll have areas where we need develop And and it it is possible to develop all of the different, elements and dimensions of character. I’ve been I consider myself, you know, a practitioner of character for a long time now. I teach it to thousands of people In the agency. And when I see day in and day out, and and I’ll never forget the 1st time as I started, 1st time I started doing the presentations on character leadership and team leaders and managers and executives kinda having moments and saying, I knew this stuff was important. I just didn’t have a way to express it or the language to do it or this model to sort of go back to be able to look through. And I find it an incredibly practical tool and has A 100% made me a better leader today than I was before I started practicing character leadership and really putting attention on the areas that I needed to develop.

Jennifer Allen [00:16:24]:
And in that, like, the center of the wheel is judgment. And so making better judgments, it positively impacts my performance, my team’s performance, And the organization’s performance. So in the day to day, I think it’s a really powerful tool as leaders. And I I just haven’t seen like, I studied business and kept up with leadership stuff. I haven’t seen another Model or description that is as fulsome as this one.

Scott McCarthy [00:16:56]:
You know, I’m about to I don’t know. Maybe shock you. But here at the podcast, I talk about my 3 domains of leadership, and those are leading yourself, leading your team, and leading your organization. Those are the 3 domains of leadership that I I focus on, and that you literally just you just literally said that, basically, when when you talk about judgment, you know, making better decisions yourself, your team, and and the organization. So so there we go. No. I’m not patting myself on the back. It’s just, you know, a little a little linkage there.

Scott McCarthy [00:17:32]:
Thank you. But let let let’s let’s dive into this model because you have an interesting you mentioned judgments in the middle, and, I’m seriously, like, I have my own models, and this isn’t about me here. My my own thoughts, of course, right, being a leadership, a thinker or whatever. I don’t I refuse to call myself guru because I just don’t like that word. But, anyway, a leadership expert podcaster. I have my own thoughts and my own things, obviously. And you mentioned middle of the model judgment, and I was like, yes. Okay.

Scott McCarthy [00:17:59]:
There’s linkage there for sure. You know, what else is in that model? So You mentioned earlier, Steve, about virtues, values, and traits. So I’m picturing kinda like a wheel type thing, some you know, something on the exterior, something in interior. Can you explain it so that the the the listener can, you you know, kinda visualize it and then what’s in there as virtues, values, and traits that we should be talking about as leaders?

Stephen Virgin [00:18:24]:
Yeah. For sure. And maybe I’ll I’ll talk about the 11, and Jen can Fly on on some of it too with the the elements. But so that, again, our our our, our colleagues there at at at Ivy, the thought leaders, They they looked at many, aspects going right back to Aristotle. So, actually, the the the model had wisdom in the middle originally. And and that transformed over time as they built it out. They they looked heavily at a body of work in the nineties by 2 prominent psychologists, Peterson and Sigelman who who wrote a book called character strengths and virtues. And there was 6 sort of, I guess, cardinal virtues in their work.

Stephen Virgin [00:19:06]:
So They they looked at what makes, you know, something virtuous. They interviewed thousands of c suite leaders. Like I say, 10 years of research. And and they they they use their own thought, their own, sort of intellect and and the works of others and came up with Eleven dimensions. So some of them are traits. So, like, you know, for example, in the big five, conscientiousness is in the model. But not all of the traits because they don’t all pass the sort of virtue test in the sense of that their behaviors that can be developed, but, like, conscientious is in there. What it’s not they’re not innate traits.

Stephen Virgin [00:19:44]:
So, you know, we don’t have introversion, extroversion. They’re not traits that are in inherent to to, you know, who you are, who Who you are when you’re you’re born, so to speak. The and that goes back to Jen’s comment. They can all be developed, which is I think one of the the most important things. In fact, our strategy is all about developing character. I mean, we hire on it and a whole bunch of other things. But, so we we we have this This amalgam, I guess, is the term we use. And we’ve got we’ve got humanity, humility, accountability, courage, drive, Temperance, transcendence, 11 of them.

Stephen Virgin [00:20:20]:
And and and then within each, there there are elements that that are that are virtuous, that support it. And their their observable behaviors, in in people that we can see. Judgments in the middle, And it they’re all interconnected. And one of the, you know, the common examples that we use to be a little bit of a simplification, but, You know, we have lots of drive or there’s people, you know, leaders who have lots of drive. So but if you use, like, the race car analogy, do you know when to put on the brakes? You know, and we’ve heard so much if in anybody in the leadership business, you know, burning out teams, leaving trails of of burnt out people behind you. So do you, You know, do you do you have the judgment when to drive, when to put the pedal on, but then when to take your foot off? But it is a lot more complicated than that or more complex when you look at The integration and interconnectedness of humility and courage. And and one of the really neat things is and this is one of the places where their work really sets it apart. And Jen mentioned this because it’s any virtue and excess becomes a vice.

Stephen Virgin [00:21:26]:
And maybe I’ll just pass back to Jen to talk about that relationship. Because to me, that’s The most important thing in here is virtues turn to vice, and that’s what we see if we read the papers sometimes. You know?

Scott McCarthy [00:21:36]:
Yeah. Can can I just jump in for a second there? So the last part there, the virtues, turning to advice. So I actually recently personally had a event, And I’m recording recorded a podcast episode on it. My last solo one where I went upon reflection, one of my virtues, humility was actually turned into a vice, and I got slammed in my face after upon reflection. I I screwed up. I made a mistake owning it. But as I reflected on why that mistake occurred and stuff, I realized one of the aspects was, being a humble person, interacting with someone who don’t know me, don’t realize I’m a humble person, and they just see my rank first and not necessarily the person who I am. And that actually turned actually against me in this situation, and that, you know, that occurred.

Scott McCarthy [00:22:27]:
So it’s just to amplify what you just said is like, yeah. You know, our our virtues can turn devices. Can can you know, you can’t go too far with them and and become negative. So I I really like that point. So, Jen, over to you.

Jennifer Allen [00:22:41]:
Yeah. I think it’s one of the brilliant parts of the, Model. And it was the piece when I was looking at you know, I was developing myself as a leader. It was the missing piece that had major moments when I first started looking at the at the model. And so when I when I did, I started looking back on decisions that I had made Or decisions that I maybe I, you know, hadn’t gone as I had planned, and what had been at play. And so I’ll give you an example of of a real life situation for me. So One of my areas of strength is humanity on the wheel. So empathetic, compassionate, with my teams.

Jennifer Allen [00:23:22]:
But it can because it’s a strength, it can also be area of excess. And so, just a little bit about me, I I’m divorced. I I have 2 children, and, you know, it was tough. It was tough. And so we are managing, You know, people who have real life experiences. And so one of my team members ended up getting divorced, and and she was in the process of separating with young children. And I had an incredible amount of empathy for her situation. But then what started to happen is she wasn’t, You know, she was late for work, and it was becoming a regular habit, or would call in, you know, an hour after her day was supposed to start and say I’m not coming in today.

Jennifer Allen [00:24:06]:
And so I initially didn’t respond. I I just was like, oh, I get it. It’s, you know, such a tough situation. But the reality is is I wasn’t holding her are accountable either. And so that access of humanity and compassion for the situation, there are also lots of processes that we’re supposed to follow as leaders if somebody’s Coming in late and, you know, calling in sick often or or not coming in. And it actually took another assistant director To ask me, like, what’s going on before I had enough awareness as to what I was doing. And it wasn’t until I saw the character leadership model that I could Truly understand how, like, I never thought, you know, what’s a bad thing of having much humanity. Right? But it also has to be balanced with accountability as a leader For my employee to have accountability, I can have empathy, but I also need to have it in balance.

Jennifer Allen [00:24:57]:
And that’s what I really found find different about this particular model, is that it helps you keep things in balance as leaders. And another you know, that’s one example, but For many leaders during the pandemic, that balance between getting things done and and our teams going through this incredible, you know, Change, constant changes to to, the restrictions and what to do and how that impacted family life. That was really hard, but we still had jobs to do, and our team still had jobs to do. So that ability to balance between getting the work done and And and caring for our staff, is something that I think all leaders have really been tested through the pandemic. And it’s just that ability to do that. And it and it’s you know, comes down to our judgment in those situations.

Scott McCarthy [00:25:52]:
It ain’t easy. Like, it ain’t easy. That’s what I’m all I I bowl everything you just sit down to those, you know, 3 words, it ain’t easy. But, you know, leadership, it it it’s it’s it’s tough. You know, you gotta know the balance. And I really enjoyed your your example on how you linked it to yourself. Right? Because I I can see that. Like, I have a lot of leeway with my team because we live on very short notice.

Scott McCarthy [00:26:24]:
The team I I I am in charge of right now, we literally could deploy, you know, tonight and be gone. So for, you know, for example, I sent 1 of my guys away on a task that was supposed to be 10 days long. It turned into 40, And and that’s just how we live. Right? So I give my team a lot of leeway because I don’t know. You know? I might I might have to walk in tomorrow and say, hey. I need you to go. Okay. When? Thursday.

Scott McCarthy [00:26:51]:
What’s today? Tuesday. How long I’m going for? I don’t know. Okay. And then guess what? I actually had that conversation. Because and that’s but that gives me a lot of it. But at the same time, it needs to be balanced because when we we still need to be sharp. We need to be on top of things. We need to get things done.

Scott McCarthy [00:27:07]:
We need to be showing. So I need to provide that balance. Right? It’s it’s so hard. So I really enjoyed your your your example because that’s a real life example. Right? Because sorry, to everyone out there who thinks there are 2 people inside 1 body, but there’s not. There’s 1 person. And, yes, life goes and bleeds into work, and work bleeds into life, and you cannot separate the 2, so that’s why I really enjoyed your your example there. That was that was great.

Scott McCarthy [00:27:37]:
Now when we’re talking about these virtues and values and traits of the model is is there some that build on others? Or, you know, is it that we look at it and go, okay. This is where I’m at. You know? How should a leader actually, let me rephrase this question. How should the leader look at this model if they had a picture of it in front of them and go, okay.

Scott McCarthy [00:27:57]:
What do I do now?

Scott McCarthy [00:27:59]:
I I I I see the you know, what is it that I do right now? I’m looking at it. I see I see the sir the diagram. I see judge at the middle. What now?

Stephen Virgin [00:28:09]:
I’m happy

Scott McCarthy [00:28:09]:
to say

Jennifer Allen [00:28:10]:
yeah. Go ahead.

Stephen Virgin [00:28:11]:
I was gonna say, Jen, maybe you should maybe just talk to, the self awareness piece as a beginning As a sort of foundation because it’s it’s so key.

Jennifer Allen [00:28:21]:
Oh, absolutely. And we say the saying in at work, you need to see something to Change it. So after we share with people what the model is and how they can use it, we actually spent 4 hours in workshops with them on developing their self awareness based on doctor Tasha Yurek’s work. She has an amazing book called Insight. And our ability to really see ourselves clearly and the impact that we’re having, The decisions, the way we show up, the impact that we’re having on our teams and within the organization is incredibly important. And and it’s something that we all need to develop, and it’s it’s a continuous thing in my personal opinion. I don’t know that that work has ever you can always excavate other other things and learn more things about you. You know, we talk about unconscious biases and, all that kind of stuff.

Jennifer Allen [00:29:18]:
And so that’s really where we get started. And then I can speak I don’t know, Steve, you wanna add to that, but I can also speak, about temperance and transcendence, which are 2 of the common dimensions to develop right now.

Stephen Virgin [00:29:33]:
Yeah. I think I think that those are those are I’d say 2 quick 2 things really quick. So all dimensions matter. You know, in in this model, there’s There’s no waiting. They really all are interconnected and and matter. Certainly, some, like, drive and courage have probably been privileged, and maybe to access as a generality in in a lot of approaches to leadership where we’ve lacked things like temperance and transcendence that Jen can talk about. But the self awareness piece is key, and I’ll just give you a quick, interesting I know I know you’ve probably got some military listeners and just, you know, leadership People like to geek out on leadership out there. I was I was in the in the navy when I was in the forces, and at one point, I was the the captain of a ship.

Stephen Virgin [00:30:16]:
And years later, my daughter joined the Navy and ended up serving on the same ship that I had been captain of, and there were still some people on the ship from When I was the the the skipper there, and she told me at 1 night at a Sunday barbecue that, she said that the the the the troops, the the the NCMs on the ships on the ship really liked me, respected me as their CO, and the officers feared me and were really intimidated by me. And I was like, no way. I’m a nice guy. Like, I like to Joke around. I used to smoke and drink coffee with everybody. And she’s like, no, dad. You scared the, you know, what out of them. And I’m like, that’s not me.

Stephen Virgin [00:30:58]:
And but but these are those, like, as Jen said, you have to see it to change it. And and I look at it, you know, now in this work that we do, this Especially Jen and I and our team, we we worked this 20 four and seven. And you really start to look at who you are as a leader Through the lens of these dimensions, and and it’s it’s just humbling in its own sort of right. But then you can do something about it. Now you’ve got that language as Jen said. But, yeah, maybe I just submitted it to on transcendence and temperance. So

Scott McCarthy [00:31:26]:
Jen is so important. Yeah. If I could jump in for a quick second there about that story because, and then we’ll drive back to Jen. I had something very similar happen to me. I had the exact same type of thing. So, in that, I I get very passionate about my work and my team and stuff like this. I get really amped up and excited stuff like this. And I and what I didn’t know until sometime later was I come across quite intimidating, especially now at the rank that I carry now as a girl.

Scott McCarthy [00:31:56]:
Didn’t realize that, but with the junior officers, I come across very intimidating. Like, holy cow. The the colonel, like, He he’s all about this. Like, we gotta and, like, no. I’m just I’m passionate. I I get, like, yes, I get excited and stuff like this, but it’s because I care and I’m passionate about this. So Now what I’ve come to realize when that that came and slapped me in the face one day, I realized, okay. I need the preference.

Scott McCarthy [00:32:19]:
When people don’t know me, like, listen. This is how I am. This is not how you need to react. This is and then and then I’ll start talking about whatever it is, the subject we’re talking about. But at least then, you know, that self awareness bit comes to play. Like, okay. I I didn’t realize that’s how people saw me. Still kinda like you.

Scott McCarthy [00:32:36]:
So I I really

Scott McCarthy [00:32:37]:
like that.

Scott McCarthy [00:32:38]:
Jen, over to you for a bit of transcendence and such.

Jennifer Allen [00:32:41]:
Yeah. So so we do, we have people do the this, Self evaluation on character leadership called the character leader, insight assessment. And then we Gather all of those results and we put them into a spreadsheet. And what we’ve been finding over the last couple of years, at least in our organization, is that temperance and transcendence, those 2 dimensions are the 2 most common to develop. They’re also not words we use very often, in our in our day to day life, so I’ll explain what I mean. So temperance is really our ability to regulate our nervous systems or remain calm and prudent In order to make decisions. Super important. Right? Because if you’re hangry or, you know, sleep deprived, being able to make the best decisions possible become a little bit harder.

Jennifer Allen [00:33:33]:
Transcendence is about being able to see the way through something. So lots of people over the last few years have felt really stuck, and, like, is this ever gonna end, and how are things gonna change, and all that kind of stuff. And the key to transcendence, And, there’s actually a wonderful book called Fish, and it’s how, you know, basically having fun, can improve morale and productivity at work, a book from many decades ago. And so transcendence is about being appreciative and optimistic and future orientated. I really like Simon Sinek’s book on this one around, playing the infinite game, around leadership in the infinite game, relates to Transcendence as well. So that’s really been tested for everybody, like, whether they hold a leadership role or not, is this ability to remain calm through this level of change. And I’m sure, like, for your military listeners, that would be a part of your training is that ability to remain calm in all sorts of, different situations, and then to be able to see the way through them.

Scott McCarthy [00:34:41]:
Yeah. You’re so right. We Definitely don’t use those words, especially not in, you know, that goes context. So, temperance is something I I definitely do discuss from time to time here at the Joe, the the ability to, be remain calm, or I I often talk about when I was, on predeployment training to Afghanistan, and, we’re doing, instant management training as as you kind of basically alluded to, you know, our training. The instructor talked about a condor moment, I. E. Taking a moment and just relaxing and, you know, taking our breath type thing, and then and then, you know, getting your head squared on and, okay, what do we need to do? What’s the next steps? You know, 3 steps out, who needs to be informed, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So Talk a bit about that on the show, and and a few other guests have also talked about taking a moment in as well.

Scott McCarthy [00:35:33]:
Actually, It’s good to link it here is that, I also run a mastermind community. And in there, each each month where you go through each of the domains, so leading yourself this has been this past month, and the theme has been leader self care. So we’ve actually we’ve actually focused in on mindfulness, meditation, physical fitness, and health, and all those types of things, so this past month. And just to help with that temperance temper, be able to control your emotions, keep your emotions checked, understand why you’re feeling the way you feel, all those things. And lots of great feedback from the from the gang in there. We’ve had some amazing conversations. Transcendence, you know, the ability to see through something. I think that’s Honestly, if of all the different virtues and such that we’ve talked about so far, to me as a leader, I I feel like that one’s crucial because we need to be able to have our team see through it.

Scott McCarthy [00:36:25]:
Right? As we went through the pandemic, we need to be able to get our team to visualize us getting through it to the other side, anything. And, I tell a story about a, CEO from Barrie Barrie, Ontario, and, He, was a printing shop CEO. So 2008 economic crash, you know, orders 100% dried up. Everything was gone. And, and this is how he did transcendence. He walked in, and he said, alright, gang. You know? This and it was a small small company, about 50 people, I believe, And he was telling me he said, I I brought them all together. I said, we have no in revenue right now.

Scott McCarthy [00:37:01]:
The economic crash is on. You know, recessions forthcoming, so on and so forth. We will get through this with everyone in tow. And he got through the economic crash, and guess how many people they laid off?

Stephen Virgin [00:37:14]:
0. Right?

Scott McCarthy [00:37:16]:
So that to me is you know, that’s that’s you know, you got to be able to do that. He said, yep. We showed up. We did nothing some days. We place looked beautiful. We cleaned it all up. But, you know, he said, I stuck to it. I said and he said to me, I stuck to it, and I made sure that we didn’t lay off a single person.

Scott McCarthy [00:37:35]:
It it was hard. I there were some nights I didn’t sleep, but we managed to get through it. And, you know, to me, that’s that’s crucial for leadership. You gotta be able to see through the other side. So I I really appreciate that.

Stephen Virgin [00:37:47]:
That that example lights up, you know, many spots on the wheel and many of the elements from compassion to accountability, conscientiousness, transcendence. And, you know, we’re not we’re not allowed to have favorites, but we do. And and transcendence is mine. It’s, you know, it’s I think of and it’s it’s it’s I don’t know if bias is the right term, but it’s influence, you know, over 40 years in the workforce and many different jobs and organizations, countries even. And, you know, and we select on character at the CRA now for executives. And we’ve run, I think, I don’t know, 8, 900 character, based interviews for selection processes. And And and I just remember going through it myself. You know, Jen’s been through it.

Stephen Virgin [00:38:30]:
It’s You know, we’re we’re in a in a selection process in in, you know, variety of, you know, public, private, not for profit. Do we really examine for those things? Being purposeful, seeing through things, appreciative, optimistic. You know, the person who you know, sometimes we use these really simple examples, but person who walks outside and even on a rainy, cloudy day still sees the wonder that’s out there because there’s Great smells in the air, and it’s good for the grass versus the person who’s just gonna complain for, you know, the next 20 minutes. And And and but, you know, magnify that into, you know, like, your example with the CEO. And the the thing is, going back to Jen’s comment, is it can be developed. Like, if you if you if you are self aware and you know the areas you need to work on, May maybe you have a deficiency and you need to develop it, or maybe you have too much. And that that again is this beauty. You can have an excess of any of these, and if you have an excess of Transcendence.

Stephen Virgin [00:39:31]:
And I think sometimes I borderline on it because I’m not I’m not grounded in reality. And that’s the the negative of the excess is you’re now A bit aloof. You’re overly creative. You’re not grounded in reality in the in the struggles of the day. And and that goes to the balance, you know, you’re talking about, Scott. And and if you can do workshops and work your way through it and find out where you sit from being, you know, Sort of ideal excess deficiency. We we have this great thing in the CRA upwards feedback where, you know, every person who manages People, so we’re talking 5, 6000 people, has 30 what do we have this year? Like, 30 odd 1,000 people Mhmm. Filled out.

Stephen Virgin [00:40:14]:
It’d be kinda like a 3 60 assessment, but I guess it’s a 120 because it’s just the people, the employees. But, you know, Jen filled out 1 on me, I filled 1 on my boss, And we all provide feedback feedback, back upwards to the person we work for on on their character and their competence. And we still believe in competence. We still have a confidence. We still want knowledge, abilities, etcetera. It’s just we’ve you know, we what we say is we’re we’re elevating character alongside competence.

Scott McCarthy [00:40:46]:
Oh, that’s awesome. I and I really like the, the 1 20 feedback that you mentioned, and I personally do something different. It it really shocks my subordinates the first time that they sit with me and this happens, but, you know, we do our our quarterly or semi yearly, reports. Right? You know what they are. You know, the good old PDRs. Right? And, and so and as well, the end of your, final evaluations. I’ll do the same thing. And I was like, alright.

Scott McCarthy [00:41:17]:
What do you got for me? And the 1st time that someone sits with me and and I asked that question for them, they’re like, excuse me? Right? I’m like, no. Seriously. Where where where am I where am I being successful, but most importantly, where am I failing you? And it’s and people get taken back because they don’t expect their supervisor to ask come that question. But you gotta check ego at the door because at the end of the day, it’s not about you. It’s about how you support your team, stuff like this. So

Stephen Virgin [00:41:43]:
Yeah. I I Should be mad

Scott McCarthy [00:41:44]:
at that. It should be. It should be

Scott McCarthy [00:41:47]:
for sure.

Scott McCarthy [00:41:48]:
In the military, we’re going a lot more that route from my understanding, so characters be coming more and more part of our evaluation criteria, especially for general off and flag officers and so on and so forth. They are working at 3 60. So when I did, my master’s program through the military. JCSP, we had to do we had to do a 3 60 program and you know? And I I I threw it out there. I I had just finished being a squadron commander of 200, and I sent my replacement an email saying, this is what’s going on. I don’t care who signs up. Anyone can have at it. Yes.

Scott McCarthy [00:42:22]:
I know there are some people who don’t like me, And and, yes, they are more than willing to sign up to fill out this this form because I don’t know what I don’t know, and there’s only one way I will find it out. So but it came back relatively good, which I I was appreciative. At the same time, there are some areas where I’m like, okay. So now for the leader out there, they’re they’ve looked at the model. They’re they’ve done some self awareness, some self reflection, like, okay. I’m I’m good here. I’m maybe a little bit overzealous here, and I am definitely deficient there. And you you kinda talked about it, Steve, a couple times of, like, This could be developed.

Scott McCarthy [00:43:00]:
We can improve this. You know, how might one go about now improving these areas of, you know, getting balance so that they’re not, you know, left leaning, right leaning, but more center with with their character virtues and such.

Stephen Virgin [00:43:16]:
Jen Jen is the black belt of developing character. I often say Jen is far too cool to be a public servant. She has put thousands of people through her her development program, so I will pass the baton to Jen on that one. And you need another 40 minutes to get the full story, but Jen, can you give you this the the quick summary?

Jennifer Allen [00:43:36]:
You know, we call it going to the character leadership gym. So it’s a practice. And there’s many, many things you can do depending on what you’re trying to develop. So things like a journaling and reflection practice, Does. What went well today? What would I do differently? This idea of and I love the practice of asking your staff For feedback. Right? Because we don’t know what we don’t know. And then there’s all sorts of things. I’ll I’ll give you a few little, tidbits Because they kinda relate to when you’re talking about your mastermind, I thought, oh, this could be this could be interesting for that group too.

Jennifer Allen [00:44:15]:
Music is actually a way that people will various element. Yeah. I see I see your face. So there’s actually been a study on this. Ivy did a study on music and how you can use that to you know? And when you think about it from the tempo of a song to the lyric, To a place it might bring you back to to your, you know, high school. It can it can rev you up, Like, if you’ve got something to do or before a presentation, you can play really calming music to calm you down As in temperance, you know, rev you up in terms of transcendence. So music as a practice can be really powerful, and simple and enjoyable. And, certainly, we talked about taking pauses and breathing, obviously, very powerful as well.

Jennifer Allen [00:45:03]:
Ivy sent some interesting work around, nature as well. Just having a picture of nature can be really calming. Also going out into nature and that presence in meditation. So anything it’s just it’s just like going to the gym. If you go to the gym and you work out and then you don’t go for 6 months, your are gonna atrophy. Same thing happens with character. So it requires attention and daily practice. We call it our leadership practice, in the work that we do.

Jennifer Allen [00:45:34]:
So I’ll pause there. Steve, do you have more to add?

Stephen Virgin [00:45:38]:
No. I think it’s it’s it’s really neat. I mean, again, in the in the simplest sense, you just have to pick things and do it in this gen. There’s there’s a lot of research going on with, you know, affect behavior, cognition, the links to character, music, the anatomy or the is it the the, The anatomy of exercise. I forget the term, but, you know, looking again, it’s it’s characters like a muscle, a little atrophy as Jen said. So But it’s it’s that self awareness identifying what you wanna work on. Like you said, Scott, I picked these areas in the model, and then and whether it’s it’s Journaling using an app, but it’s just doing it. You know? Like like, one one of the things, for example, that that that I was My humanity has kinda swung back and forth over the years.

Stephen Virgin [00:46:22]:
I think I’ve had times when I’ve had excess humanity as a leader For for troops in the military or employees in the public service. And I’ve I’ve, you know, to to the point where, you know, sometimes you can be taken advantage of it, Kind of thinking of Jen’s example earlier. And other times where I’ve been, you know, a bit of a hard nose, and and sort of taskmaster. But I I was I was looking at some aspects of my humanity and and listening to a a gentleman speak at a conference about something, and it really got me thinking. And, You know? And and so it just caused me to think, like, I need to I I I need to just look at Empathy and compassion, which are two elements of humanity. And and and look at every situation I get into during the course of a day, and Am I being empathetic? Am I being compassionate in this situation? Am I being, you know, too much or too little? Justice is one of the dimensions. Even handedness is one that that kinda struck me in terms of that awareness thing where You know, and I I I I steal this example from a a guy named Bill Howard I saw speak. He’s a fascinating, presenter, but He was talking in different language, but what he was talking about was even handedness as a leader.

Stephen Virgin [00:47:40]:
And I would walk into the office, and I would go over and talk to Jen because we’re both foodies, and We’d like to talk about food and restaurants we go to. And then I’d go to talk to Kevin because we’re both sports nuts, and we’re both eighties rock and roll music fans. But I’d stopped the rounds there because there was maybe other people that I didn’t have things in common with, and it didn’t even dawn on me. And, till again, I had this Language of character and looking at the aspect of justice and some of the self reflection and and and tests I’ve done where Maybe my justice wasn’t optimized, and I realized just a simple thing like that. And so I would then, you know, find things To talk about with with with other people on the team. And it turns out, you know, myself and another employee like to ski, and we both ski to Tremblant. Now we had something to chat about. And, You know, again, it it it might sound simple, but these things they’re and as you know, I mean, we’re all leaders here.

Stephen Virgin [00:48:33]:
And in fact, you know, one of the beauties of the the entire character approach This is not built in the traditional hierarchical model of leaders. You can you can be a leader with no subordinates. You can you know, I often say my my My kids are leaders at the gym. Nobody there works for them, but they exhibit these, you know, character traits, and and and people look at that. So, yeah, it’s, It’s it’s quite the it’s quite the journey. When you really start to look at these things and and self assess, it’s, Yeah. It, it it makes you think about every decision you take in a day outside of work as well. I mean, Jen and I have been talking primarily about work, but, You know, it’s, we like to say, you know, you you’ll you’ll lead a better life if you if you practice these things.

Jennifer Allen [00:49:19]:
A 100%.

Scott McCarthy [00:49:22]:
No. I I fully agree with you guys. I actually wrote an article about, 88 habits for leaders to develop for, a morning habit for teen habits for leaders out there. And and, Jen, you kinda hit on some of them. You know? Journaling is in there. Meditation’s in there. Physical fitness exercise in there. Stay away from your phone.

Scott McCarthy [00:49:46]:
Know, there’s anyway, there’s 8 different things in there, and and it’s I hope leaders out there to set themselves up for success for the day, Whether that and, as I talk to my mastermind people and and, members and some of them one of the things that they have that they struggle with is, you know, work, life balance. That’s always been a huge one. Like, how do I balance, you know, demands of of the office and then coming home? And and, Jen, you know, you’re a mom of 2. And I’m like, dad dad of 2, and he’s like, mom, dad, you know, and the nag, nag, nag, and homework and this and that. I’m like, oh god, groceries, and yeah. The dog needs to get walked down. Like, oh, I just want some time to relax. Right? Like, how do you balance all those things? And it it’s It’s enabling, you know, looking at all this stuff and saying, okay.

Scott McCarthy [00:50:32]:
What can I what do I need to do? What don’t I need to do? Where where are the things? You know, what is serving me? That’s one of the things I talked about to my team. It’s like, okay. What’s serving right now? What’s serving you? Is is sitting there and, you know, and and drooling on yourself with Netflix for hours upon hours at night serving you, or is it not? You know? Some nights, yeah, it can. But as we’ve kinda talked about it, it’s balance. Right? Other times, if you do it all the time, no. It’s not. Right? So I I I’ve really enjoyed this conversation, both of you. Before we wrap up here, I got a couple last questions.

Scott McCarthy [00:51:08]:
And the first of those last questions is a question I ask all the guests here at the Peak Performance Leadership Podcast. According to you, Jen, and Steve, and I’ll let ladies go first. What what makes a great leader?

Jennifer Allen [00:51:27]:
I I’m gonna go back to to self awareness. I think it’s a really, thing that can can separate leaders because when you are looking at becoming more self aware, can see your impact in in the workplace, and then you can adjust. So that, I think, is those pieces, that is really important for great leaders.

Scott McCarthy [00:51:53]:
Awesome. And and you, Steve?

Stephen Virgin [00:51:56]:
Yeah. I think I’d I’d go with first of all, thoughtful.

Jennifer Allen [00:52:00]:
Mhmm.

Stephen Virgin [00:52:00]:
In in all senses of the word, you know, like, they’re they’re just thoughtful people. And then, you know, I’ve I’ve worked for some some really good ones. Just thoughtful. I think things through and, I guess, say all senses of the word. I I think the other side is, For me, they they inspire. And then it doesn’t doesn’t and that don’t equate that being charismatic at all, but they just inspire you to to wanna do good, you know, good things. And and, you know, like, Jen is thoughtful, and Jen inspires me. Again, it’s not hierarchical.

Stephen Virgin [00:52:35]:
Right? It’s it’s it’s not it’s It’s not only people I’ve worked for. I’ve learned just as much about leadership in the last 4 years working with Jen, as I’m sure she’s learned from me. Probably, I probably learned more more

Scott McCarthy [00:52:50]:
Perfect. Love it. And and the final question of the show, I know both of you are, public servants. You’re, you know, you’re not coaches or authors or anything like that. But still, if there’s anything you would like to plug right now, feel free to, have at it this time is for you. No? No takers? It’s I’d say It’s all good.

Stephen Virgin [00:53:13]:
I told

Scott McCarthy [00:53:14]:
you. But, seriously, I wanna thank you. The show, for the audience out there, this was it’s been a long time in the making. It’s definitely been a long time in making, but you know what? It it was been definitely worth the wait. I I I thank you thank you both for taking time on your busy schedules. We’re recording us off hours. You’re away from work. You still have your family responsibilities.

Scott McCarthy [00:53:38]:
You know, this is my side hustle, so my family’s used to it now. But, but seriously, thank you both for come taking time.

Stephen Virgin [00:53:46]:
Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks for having us.

Jennifer Allen [00:53:49]:
Yeah. It was a pleasure.

Scott McCarthy [00:53:53]:
And that’s a wrap for this episode, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting the peak Performance leadership podcast. But you know what you could do to truly support the podcast and know that’s not leaving a rating and review? It’s simply helping a friend, And that is helping a friend by sharing this episode with them if you think this would resonate with them and help them elevate Their performance level, whether that’s within themselves, their teams, or their organization. So do that. Help me. Help a friend. Win win all around, and, hey, you look like a great friend at the same time.

Scott McCarthy [00:54:32]:
So just hit that little share button on your app, And then feel free to fire this episode to anyone that you feel would benefit from it. Finally, There’s always more. There’s always more lessons around being the highest performing leader that you can possibly be, whether that’s for yourself, your team, or your organization. So why don’t you subscribe? Subscribe to the show via moving forward leadership dot com forward slash subscribe. Until next time,