Trust lies at the heart of effective leadership and team performance. In the latest episode of the Peak Performance Leadership podcast, Scott McCarthy delves into an insightful conversation with renowned expert Bernard Desmidt about the crucial role of trust in leadership and the five disciplines crucial to developing high-performing teams. This episode explores the impact of trust on intimacy, credibility, reliability, authenticity, and more, providing invaluable insights for leaders striving to elevate their performance.

Bernard Desmidt’s profound insights in this episode provide a deep dive into the critical elements of building trust and fostering high-performing teams. The conversation unravels the “5 disciplines of high performing teams” as Desmidt draws from his book “Team Better Together,” shedding light on the discipline to discover, declare, and deliver collective performance goals. He emphasizes the pivotal role of clarity in purpose and mandate, comparing a lack of direction to chopping trees in the wrong forest.

Desmidt further emphasizes the importance of collaborative teams embodying interdependence and valuing collective capacity, stressing the significance of the hiring and screening process in forming high-performing teams. The discussion centers on the essential disciplines necessary for team success: purpose, designing culture and ways of working, delivering collective performance goals, developing collective wisdom, and seeking to flourish.

The Peak Performance Leadership podcast continues its mission to illuminate the path to peak performance in leadership across various domains. In this episode, Bernard Desmidt’s expertise guides listeners through the fundamental principles of trust and team development, offering valuable takeaways for leaders committed to unlocking their teams’ potential.

This episode is a must-listen for leaders looking to cultivate trust within their teams and navigate the journey toward high performance in leadership. Be sure to tune in to this insightful conversation and discover how to build trusting, high-performing teams with Bernard Desmidt on the Peak Performance Leadership podcast.

Meet Bernard

Bernard Desmidt, an expert and consultant, is the featured guest in this engaging episode. With his extensive experience in leadership development and team dynamics, Desmidt brings a wealth of knowledge on the essential elements necessary to foster trust and build high-performing teams. He stresses the significance of trust in leadership, emphasizing its impact on micromanagement and peak performance, and shares valuable insights from his book “Team Better Together.”

Timestamped Overview

– 07:30: Scott McCarthy emphasizes the pivotal role of trust in leadership and its influence on micromanagement and peak performance.

– 12:15: Bernard Desmidt highlights the necessity of self-trust and its connection to the stages of psychological safety within a team.

– 16:40: The conversation delves into military examples as a model of trust and the psychological screening process for special forces candidates.

– 22:00: The hosts briefly touch on the “defined disciplines” related to leadership and the sequencing of activities, showcasing the importance of building quality working relationships before aiming for superior results.

– 27:45: Bernard Desmidt emphasizes the significance of executive team meetings during mergers and acquisitions as a form of due diligence.

– 32:20: Scott McCarthy and Bernard Desmidt discuss the qualities that make a great leader, including determination, intuition, curiosity, and engagement.

– 37:00: Bernard Desmidt shares ways to connect and engage with him through his website and invites listeners to join his journey.

– 42:10: Scott McCarthy encourages listeners to share the podcast episode to help others elevate their performance.


Guest Resources

If you are interested in learning more about Bernard’s resources be sure to check out the following links:

• Website:
• LinkedIn:

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The following is an AI generated transcript which should be used for reference purposes only. It has not been verified or edited to reflect what was actually said in the podcast episode. 


Scott McCarthy [00:00:00]:
On episode 237 of the peak performance leadership podcast, today, we speak to expert and consultant Bernard Desmond, and he’s gonna teach you the 5 different disciplines of high performing teams. All the high performing teams today, folks. Are you ready for this? Alright. Let’s do it. Welcome, 1, welcome all to the Peak Performance Leadership podcast, a weekly podcast series dedicated to helping you hit peak performance across the 3 domains of leadership. Those being leading yourself, leading your team, and leading your organization. This podcast couples my 20 years of military experience as a senior Canadian army officer with world class guests bringing you the most complete podcast of leadership going. And for more, feel free to check out our

Scott McCarthy [00:01:01]:
And with that, let’s get to the show. Yes. Welcome, Warren. Welcome all to the Peak Performance Leadership podcast. It is your chief leadership officer, Scott McCarthy, and Thanks for coming out today. If you are listening real time, I have some great, great. Great news. Website is back fully functional at the we’ll call it 90 5% solution now.

Scott McCarthy [00:01:35]:
Still a few things on the back end needs to get squared away, but all the pages are live. The show notes are coming back online slowly. Just be a little bit, patient with us with the show notes. There are over 300 different posts of show notes in the back catalog that we just need to square away a little bit, but they are actually there. You can easily search for an episode if you’re looking for a specific episode, and in the near future, using the episode number will return. So I’m happy to say website is back up and running, and life is finally good. I did take, you know, the opportunity to redesign the front home page. So let me know.

Scott McCarthy [00:02:22]:
Let me know if you like the homepage the way it looks now. Vice, the last one. Anyway, That’s today’s public service announcement. And now let’s get into what we’re here for. And that’s 5 disciplines of high performing teams. And, You know, of course, this goes right into, domain 2, you know, leading our teams. And this is what we strive to achieve, high performing teams. Right? That’s about us as leaders.

Scott McCarthy [00:02:57]:
That’s what we want. That’s what we’re looking for. And in this episode, we talk about those 5 different disciplines, which I put trust and come see how they’re utilized and why psychological safety is important. And we have to understand, you know, how we go about maneuvering through these different disciplines. And then in the end webinar, we talk about the hiring process. And let me tell you, he has a very different view on how we should use the hiring process to bring new team members into our high performing teams. Now if this podcast episode. Really strikes a chord with you.

Scott McCarthy [00:03:42]:
What I’d like to let you know is I’m gonna take a minute explain our leader growth mastermind because guess what? There’s aspects of a nerd’s book, and you’re gonna hear a bit of it in the podcast today, that gets utilized as part of the core content within the mastermind community. You see, each month, we Take A Domain, whether that’s leading yourself, leading your team, or leading your organization, and we have a theme for that domain for the month, and we dive into various bits of content. So if you’re listening real time, September 2022 is all about leading yourself, and we’re talking about leader self care. So we’ve been talking about health and fitness, mindfulness and meditation and so on and so forth in the mastermind. Well, later, we will be going into high performing teams. And guess what? We will be discussing the 5 disciplines. That’s how the mastermind Content is created, and that’s how it works. So if you’re interested in joining us and you’re ready to level up your leadership Gain, and the best leader possible, then go to lead don’t boss.comforward/mastermind.

Scott McCarthy [00:05:05]:
And I look forward to seeing you there. Alright, ladies and gentlemen. That’s enough for me. It’s time for you to listen to this great podcast interview with myself and Bedard Desmond and talking about the 5 disciplines of a high performing

Bernard Desmidt [00:05:24]:

Scott McCarthy [00:05:37]:
Bernard, my friend, welcome to the show. So good to have you here, sir.

Bernard Desmidt [00:05:43]:
Thank you. Thank you, Scott, and, Privileged to be to be speaking with you.

Scott McCarthy [00:05:49]:
So we’re talking today about your your book, Team Better Together, with the most interesting to me subtitle, 5 disciplines of high performing teams. Now here at moving forward leadership, slash peak performance leadership podcast. I talk about 3 domains of leadership. 1 being leading yourself. I’ll skip over 2. And then number 3 is, leading organization. And then, of course, number 2 is leading your team, which this book kind of fits perfectly in there, and we we we aim for peak performance across those 3 domains. So you, sir, are are a great fit tonight.

Scott McCarthy [00:06:26]:
Edna Gaetz. What what I’d like to know is, you know, what are the 5 disciplines? Now why those 5? Why not some others?

Bernard Desmidt [00:06:37]:
Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. And I I suppose it may it it may help just to give a bit of Context of where were they they born from

Scott McCarthy [00:06:47]:

Bernard Desmidt [00:06:47]:
And, you know, what what made me, come to them. I I you know, for for a long time, I’ve been, you know, a an executive an executive team coach for for over 20 years. And I I was fascinated and still am fascinated with what I call the the 80806020 paradox. And why is it that 80% of leaders claim to spend 60% of their time in teams yet Only 20% of the time of those teams flourishing. And what is that distinction between A high performing flourishing team and one that just functions or one that just flounders. And, You know, again, these these metaphors help until they don’t, Scott. But, you know, if we if we look at, Yeah. High performing athletes.

Bernard Desmidt [00:07:48]:
And and I’m I’m gonna stop there with that metaphor because teens and athletes have something in common, not not not everything in common. But a high performing athlete I put to you, just like a high performing team, is is not distinguished by its talent. It’s distinguished by its discipline. And What what I mean by discipline, it’s the the uncompromising the the the the the The unwavering commitment to maintaining a rhythm and a cadence of performance. And and if if we look at these disciplines as a as a cadence of performance because this is these disciplines are not just once in a time. The these are or lifelong, unending universal disciplines. And so would it help if I just Sort of speak through each of the the 5, give you a high level

Scott McCarthy [00:08:49]:
sort of distinction. Absolutely. And then we’ll kinda do some deep dives.

Bernard Desmidt [00:08:53]:
Yeah. Fantastic. So so if if we look at this, and it it may help to to distinguish a a group from a from a from a team. But One of the distinctions is and the first discipline is what I refer to the discipline to discover. And and Teams distinguish themselves on discovering and knowing, not assuming, knowing the mandate they’ve been commissioned with. Groups determine their own mandate. Teams know the mandate their stakeholders have commissioned them with. What and what does that mean? That they know what the stakeholders appreciate about the team, they know what the stakeholders are looking for from the team, and they know deeply what changes the the stakeholders are are looking for the team to make.

Bernard Desmidt [00:09:47]:
So that’s the first. And I cannot tell you in almost all instances when I start working with a team, The mandate is more assumed than than known. So we we test that. Then and and and these disciplines in the work I do, Typically, we work in the sequence. The 2nd discipline is what I refer to as the discipline to declare. And and and What that is about is is the declaration of the common uniting purpose This team exists. Teams teams start from their why. Groups start from what they do.

Bernard Desmidt [00:10:28]:
Teams start from why they do it. And and when we look at the the the declaration of purpose, it it answers the question, for what sake is this team has this team come to be? Why does it exist? What what’s the cause it’s serving greater than itself? When when we and and, you know, this is when when when teams start moving towards a shared and common understanding of their reason for existence. We then move into what I call The 3rd discipline, and that’s the discipline to design. And and we’re designing our culture, our ways of working. Yeah. And and here’s the thing, Scott. Teams rise and fall on on the quality of their working relationships. So in this in this discipline, we’re designing how do we engage and relate with one another whether we’re teaming together or apart or with whoever else.

Bernard Desmidt [00:11:29]:
And that’s that’s the embodiment of of our culture. Then and only then do we move into The 4th discipline, which is the discipline to deliver, and and and that’s around answering the question. What are those collective performance goals each team member holds themselves individually and collectively accountable for And and which can only be achieved working interdependently. Now, you know, of course, teams in you know, teams are made of individuals who have their own KPIs and their own goals, but but teams exist to achieve something no other entity can. So what is it? And and then the 5th the 5th discipline, and and this is this is interesting and I’ll expand a little bit more on this, is Is what I refer to discipline 5 is the discipline to to develop. And and high performing, flourishing, collaborative teams Take responsibility not only for their for their own but but for each other’s learning growth and success. High performing collaborative teams lean into learning with and from one another. They’re open to giving, receiving feedback.

Bernard Desmidt [00:12:45]:
They admit to their mistakes. They lean into learning from their successes and mistakes. It’s it’s about the commitment, the unfailing commitment to build the collective wisdom. And it’s interesting, you know, in my assessment was each time we we I start working with a team, we do an initial assessment against those 5 disciplines, then we do one after 12 months 24 months. The the the scores on discipline 5 have the the highest predictive validity on a team’s potential and likelihood to transition to flourish. When we when we’re open to learn with and from one another, when we’re open to seek the learning and criticism. Those teams have the highest potential to transition. So in a in a nutshell, there’s obviously much that sits behind all of this in the in the work we do, but those those are the the The uncompromising commitment to to these disciplines to sustain a a a momentum to to to To flourish for more than the time than not.

Scott McCarthy [00:13:53]:
I really I really liked a lot of what you just said there, and and that’s a very well done, overview. You you may have done that once or twice before.

Bernard Desmidt [00:14:04]:
Wait. It you know, it it’s The here’s the thing, Scott, these disciplines apply to individuals as much as they do to teams.

Scott McCarthy [00:14:13]:
Yeah. No. It makes sense for sure.

Bernard Desmidt [00:14:15]:
I’m I’m I’m never not asking about, you know, am I serving the mandate? What’s my purpose? How am I showing up? Yeah. So, but but when we bring these disciplines, when each in because for a team to flourish, each individual has to flourish. So so, you know, I I I cannot not be and this this doesn’t mean this is easy for me. This means it just makes things more possible. Yeah. But, you know, it’s the uncompromising living in and from these disciplines.

Scott McCarthy [00:14:47]:
Yeah. No. And and one thing I really appreciate it, that you mentioned was, the difference between a group and a team. You know? I I really appreciate that. That that that that Really struck home to me because I was like, yeah. Because you can see groups you know, we see groups of people all the time. I’m with a group of people every weekend, but I’m also working in a team every day. Right? And it’s totally different.

Scott McCarthy [00:15:11]:
It’s the the why behind it. So I appreciate that.

Bernard Desmidt [00:15:17]:
No. No. It it’s so interesting, Scott, because in in more more often than not, When I start working with a a leadership and executive team, it’s interesting how interchangeably They refer to themselves as a group in the team.

Scott McCarthy [00:15:35]:

Bernard Desmidt [00:15:36]:
So we we we, you know, we can’t see what we can’t distinguish.

Scott McCarthy [00:15:40]:

Bernard Desmidt [00:15:40]:
And and only when we we see things differently do new possibilities arise. So we stay in that distinction. Yeah. And and it’s subtle, and I don’t wanna paint a group as bad and wrong. No. No. No. No.

Bernard Desmidt [00:15:54]:
No. Groups can achieve, but but never what a team can.

Scott McCarthy [00:16:00]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. You know? They’re not they’re not bad or wrong. No. Agreed.

Scott McCarthy [00:16:04]:
It’s just it’s just different different circumstances. That’s all.

Bernard Desmidt [00:16:08]:
Yep. Yep. Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:16:09]:
Now you you you did mention one thing, you know, and I heard basically a hint of trust. Now in the past, I’ve had a a a decent number. I’d I’d say I’ll say a decent number of former US Navy SEALs on the show and talking about leadership. Yes.

Bernard Desmidt [00:16:24]:
I I have listened to some. Yes. Interesting.

Scott McCarthy [00:16:27]:
Right? And, they often talk about the, you know, the balance between, trust and and and competency. And that if you have a high high high competent person, in your team, but you can’t trust them. They they want them gone. Whereas if you have a lower competent person, but, you can you know you can trust them. That’s the kind of person they want in their team. So, I’m just interested to see where you fall in with that type of, ideology. How does that fit in with your disciplines? Because, you know, seals and discipline kinda go hand in hand here, although these are disciplines, so a little bit different.

Bernard Desmidt [00:17:07]:
No. No. Absolutely. Absolutely. If if we if we think about this, I I put to you in a perspective is is teams rise and fall on the quality of their working relationships. You you you and this is so often, you know, and, you know, when I work with teams, they they look to to start with discipline for the results. No. No.

Bernard Desmidt [00:17:29]:
No. No. You you cannot expect to get a better result before first shifting the quality of the relationship. And I just share that in context because when what do we mean by working relationships. And I I I stand on the on the shoulders of giants in this respect. And one of them is Gloria Kelly who who brought The 8 she’s a a preeminent sociologist and and she works with what she refers to, the 8 elements of, relationships, and these are all expanded in in in the book, team better together. One of these elements It’s trust. You know? How how can a team transition to to to perform and collaborate and and flourish with without trust? And then the question is, what do we mean by trust? And one of the most powerful Approaches frameworks to trust is is the the trust equation by by David Meister.

Bernard Desmidt [00:18:30]:
I’m I’m not sure if you’re familiar with it, But it it looks at the the 4 elements and and each of these elements carry equal weight. And and just very quickly, if we look at this, it’s it’s the first is credibility. So how how well do I do what I do And and is what I say credible? Have I have I got the experience and expertise? The the other is reliability. Yeah. You you the extent to which you can depend on me and and the consistency with which my, you my my my dependability. So I can be highly credible but unreliable. It’s gonna impact trust. Or I could be highly reliable but less capable.

Bernard Desmidt [00:19:18]:
It’s gonna impact trust. Then we get the little gem and he calls this intimacy. And and it it’s not It’s not personal intimacy. It’s it’s emotional intimacy. By that, he means my my my capacity to be genuine, to speak my truth to you, To have the hard conversations, to admit to my mistakes, to to being humble. You know, humble leaders Say, I don’t know. What do you think? And I need help. So I can be highly credible, highly reliable, But not authentic and sincere.

Bernard Desmidt [00:19:54]:
It’s it’s gonna impact the trust. And then the denominator in this this equation is what he refers to self orientation. So this this is your experience of me. Am am I am I self obsessed obsessed? Is this all about what I think, what I know, what I wanna do, or what I wanna accomplish? Or or is this about my selflessness? I’m I’m vested in your interest. So this this is profound and each of these elements carry equal weight. And if we think about it If we think about it, you know, if if we just draw this distinction, groups focus on credibility and reliability. Teams focus on intimacy and selflessness. Now that that’s true until it’s not.

Bernard Desmidt [00:20:45]:
But but you can see, you know, often the credibility and reliability, what I know, my expertise and experience, That’s not enough to get me across the trust line. It’s it’s my ticket to play. And I often refer to credibility and reliability as the management elements. Intimacy and and selflessness are the leadership elements of the trust, and these are the 2 hands that wash each other. So you you you, you know, you’re so so right with with with with audit, it’s you you’re building you’re building a team on sand.

Scott McCarthy [00:21:18]:
No. Absolutely. I often say, especially, for trust, you know, that’s a cornerstone leadership. If if you don’t have it, no one’s gonna follow you. And if you if you can’t trust your team, you’re gonna be constantly second guessing them, which then turns you into a micromanager. And, oh, by the way, you know, The tagline of the show is lead, don’t boss. So you can probably guess what we try to avoid here. You know, that’s not peak performance.

Scott McCarthy [00:21:45]:
That’s not peak performance you as the leader, nor is that peak performance for the team nor the organization. Micromanagement is destructive most of the time. Sometimes you need it, but most of the time. It’s destructive. So

Bernard Desmidt [00:21:57]:
Yeah. But but here’s the thing, Scott. Let’s come back to, you know, your your your 3, the sort of alchemy of success, Yes. Leading self leading, team leading organization. You know? If we think about this, it’s very difficult for me to trust you without first trusting me. So, you know, to what extent am I trusting myself in bringing my perspective, in In disagreeing or bringing an alternative view, so how much trust do I have in in my own conviction, my own credibility, my own reliability, is always quite an interesting perspective. We always look to trust in the context of the other. But but but, Yeah.

Bernard Desmidt [00:22:44]:
How how what what what’s the trust I have in me?

Scott McCarthy [00:22:48]:
Right. Right. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense, actually. And, you know, ask them to speak in terms of psychological safety, regards to work of Tim Clark. He talks about 4 stages. Yeah. And, basically, you know, am am I am I safe enough to challenge? Am I safe excuse me.

Scott McCarthy [00:23:07]:
As you described, especially in in the the discipline five, developing learning. He he would that would fall for him in, stage 4, any challenge safety where you have the ability actually, learning is the the 2nd stage. Learner safety, we’re gonna make a mistake and learn from it. But I think you’re beyond that. I think what you’re getting at is actually stage 4, challenger safety, where we can go, okay. You know? What did we do wrong here? You know, what what’s wrong with the situation here? And and and going back to my earlier come up with the seals and and, special forces people, This is how they operate. You know? They get ready for a mission, an operation. They’ll look at the they’ll go around the table, and everyone has a has a right Say something at the table and go over everything, and they’ll and they’ll constantly challenge the plan.

Scott McCarthy [00:23:55]:
Challenge the plan. Challenge the plan. Challenge the plan. Everyone could has the right Challenge the Plan. They keep going, going, going. Why? Because they can’t afford something to be, 1, overlooked or, 2, minimalized when it was actually an important piece there because, you know, lives are actually, you know, seriously on the line here. So that’s kinda what you’re, you know, you’re getting at, and it lines up nicely with Tim’s work too.

Bernard Desmidt [00:24:17]:
Yeah. Yes. So true. So true. I mean, in a in a previous life in South Africa at the time, we had the military conscription. But because of my psychology background, I’m not a psychology psychologist. I studied it. I was involved in the selection and assessment of special forces candidates.

Bernard Desmidt [00:24:41]:
So, it was it was very interesting. You just sort of triggered back the, the the memory to that time. But, You know, this is trust. And I mean, in in terms of, you know, that that goes to the essence of, one’s survival. Yeah. Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:25:01]:
Obviously, I keep using the military examples because, I’m actually still serving regular force Canadian army. So, Okay. Yeah. Anyway, we’re gonna have a full conversation just on that. And my my my my my psychological screening time when I was applying for social forces, Yeah. Very interesting. I’d love to pick your brain on the other side of that process because I know how I felt coming out on my end. I tell you.

Scott McCarthy [00:25:28]:
I was drooling on myself and not sure if I knew who I was anymore. Yeah. Anyway Yeah. So, anyway, back to to the the conversation at hand, our defined disciplines. So, again, for the listener, you know, just quickly, discover our mandate, discover our purpose, discover our cult or designer sorry. Backup. Discover a mandate, declare a purpose, design a culture, deliver our results, and develop our learning. Now, that that must be sequential.

Scott McCarthy [00:25:55]:
Right? Like, you obviously can’t, you know, develop our learning without getting results or having understanding of your mandate. Like, obviously, To me, this is a step by step kind of process, and now I have Backstreet Boys or NSYNC, one of those bands in my head. But, anyway, the world of story is like you can’t just jump around. You know? So how is the leader? Would you know Okay. We’re we’re we’re done discipline 1. We, you know, we we we fully understand our mandate. Now let let’s, you know, get into declaring our purpose and moving on and moving on and moving on. Yeah.

Bernard Desmidt [00:26:29]:
It it’s it’s it’s interesting, Scott, because so often, when I engage with executive teams, There’s a seduction to discipline for, deliver. And and, you know, and and and, you know, Then I point out that the seduction is because they’re showing up more as a group and and and less as a team. But I I don’t, you know, I don’t want to To be prescriptive in this. There there’s a strong preference in the sequencing. But what We we can start at discipline 3, designing our ways of working and move back to our purpose and discover. But what we’ll never do is start with discipline for deliver. That that will be the last thing we do because If if we if we accept the perspective, teams rise and fall on the quality of their working relationships. To to get a better result, you first gotta shift the quality of the working relationship.

Bernard Desmidt [00:27:32]:
The it it doesn’t work the other way around. It doesn’t work the other way around. So, what what we will never do is start with discipline 4. We end with discipline 4.

Scott McCarthy [00:27:50]:
Yeah. Yeah. It makes That actually makes a lot of sense to me now, especially the start part. I could see why, you know, people out there would be keen on that and start looking at that immediately. But, you know, to me,

Bernard Desmidt [00:28:04]:
if we’re

Scott McCarthy [00:28:04]:
if we’re focusing on the results, You know? Then Yeah. Are you focusing on the right results is the first question.

Bernard Desmidt [00:28:11]:
Well, well, exactly. Right? Exactly. You know? If if if I’m not clear on my purpose, if I’m not if we’re not clear on on the mandate, you know, we we may be chopping the trees in the wrong forest.

Scott McCarthy [00:28:25]:
Brett. And, you know, I I really like the Indian snake story for these type of scenarios. Right? We’re we’re in the British, you know, had India colonized, and there were too many snakes, and they started you know? Okay. We’ll pay you to bring in snakes to decrease the population. Like, okay. People go out, wax snakes and bring them in, and we’ll pay them, and that’ll get rid of the snake population. Lo and behold, there made a black market for snakes because people started breeding them in their homes. And then once they realized what they had done, then they said, okay.

Scott McCarthy [00:28:53]:
We’re not paying anymore. And then they end up with, like, 5 times as many snakes slithering around India.

Bernard Desmidt [00:28:58]:

Scott McCarthy [00:28:58]:
Right? And and it’s really like, okay.

Bernard Desmidt [00:29:00]:
Well, are you focusing on the right result? Young. Exactly. But I think just coming back to your question around, you you know, how do we How do we get teams to to see and and commit to a particular sequence? You know, I spend an an an, And I’m unapologetic about this, an uncompromising amount of time before engaging with a team in in in a discovery process. You know, meeting with team members, they do the 5 discipline assessments. So we collect a lot of data. And and before we commence, I I will share that data highlighting common themes and trends. And it’s invariable The the themes and trends sort of typically move in the sequence. And and, you know, through that initial, analysis phase.

Bernard Desmidt [00:29:58]:
There’s there’s lots of understanding that’s that’s facilitated and and commitment This is this is a journey that requires an inordinate amount of of commitment, dedication, time, and effort to transition to a sustainable flourishing team, flourishing more of the time. Yep. This is not about flourishing all the time. That that’s that’s naive. That will never happen. But, you know, if if I I I guess, you know, coming back to this paradox, if if we can shift Flourishing from 20% of the time to 40% of the time. There’s a world of infinite possibility of what can be accomplished. Infinite.

Bernard Desmidt [00:30:42]:
Just flourishing 40% of the time, and that is possible, but it’s hard work.

Scott McCarthy [00:30:49]:
No. It absolutely is. You get the results where you put your time and and and energy. Right? In in the Canadian forces. When I was a young officer, we heard this, saying, the 90 10 rule, Which I despise now, by the way. The 90/10 rule is this. 90% of your time gets taken up by 10% of your people when you’re in a command. Say so when I was, squadron commander of 200 members, I said, alright, folks.

Scott McCarthy [00:31:19]:
Everyone and I spoke to my junior officers and my senior leadership corps. Sorry. Everyone know the 90, 10 year old? They’re like, yes, sir. Mike, we don’t have that rule here. Take it, crumpled up, throw it out, and they’re like, what? I said, we have the 90.90 rule. The 90% of our time is gonna be spent on 90% of our folks. That other 10%, they want our time. They want more of the you know, they want out of the 10% of our time realm.

Scott McCarthy [00:31:43]:
They wanna get into the 90 pie. They’re gonna come across the road and become part of the ninety. And that was Well And that’s how I ran and pushed my team. I said, this is what we’re going to do because This is it. Right? Let’s focus.

Bernard Desmidt [00:31:58]:
Yeah. I I I think that’s a that’s a that’s a beautiful sort of metaplan analogy because flourishing, you know, collaborative teams embody 1990.

Scott McCarthy [00:32:09]:
Yep. Absolutely.

Bernard Desmidt [00:32:11]:
They They they commit to one another. They, they invest, you know, not only in In the deep appreciation of of the diversity of thinking and skill, but but the the deep appreciation of the interdependence. So, we whereas groups focus on independence, they value more their individual contribution than the collective capacity and capability.

Scott McCarthy [00:32:41]:
No. Yeah. No. I Yeah. Yeah. I’ll I yeah. I could totally see that in in that terms, and, you know, groups are very much more individualistic. And, probably, that’s how I find, you know, that that 10% probably looked at the team by it you know, the rest of us looking as a team in in your in your context.

Scott McCarthy [00:33:01]:
Yeah. I’d like to take a little bit of a a sidebar. It’s still very much with, you know, high performing teams and what you’re talking about here. And I like to get your thoughts on, you know, hiring people in screening people and stuff like this because not everyone operates at the same level. Not everyone has the same, you know, compasses. Not everyone is necessarily trustworthy, as we all know, so on and so forth. So how do how does the whole hiring screening, That whole process from your point of view, come to play in in in, you know, the with these 5 disciplines in how we form our teams and how we kinda meld. Because if we get that 1 bad apple in there, well, you know the old saying that It’s the same for a reason.

Scott McCarthy [00:33:48]:
Right? Because there’s true. One bad apple will spoil the batch. So we need to find that right away and, you know, Get It Out, per se. So I’d like to get your thoughts on that and the hiring process and how we can maximize that to maximize making a high performing team.

Bernard Desmidt [00:34:05]:
Yeah. Interesting, interesting questions, Scott. What’s coming to mind is high performing collaborative teams. Just as much as it is important for the team to select the candidate. It’s equally important for the candidate to select the team. So what I mean by that is know deeply what you’re committing to. Now I know this isn’t possible, but in in the ideal world and and and, I mean, may maybe not in the ideal world, but the selection process, Invite the candidate. Obviously, should this be a shortlisted and preferred can invite the candidate to sit in a team meeting.

Bernard Desmidt [00:34:54]:
Invite the candidate to just observe how people engage teaming together and apart. Invite the candidate to deeply see what value they’re going to bring to fulfilling the purpose. Invite the candidate to To deeply, deeply demonstrate how they exhibit the ways of working because these become very explicit. You know, they they they they they identified and and this is this is not about sort of cloning. This is about, you know, the The the capacity to to discuss the undiscussable. So how do we show up with one another? So I I think I think, you know, In answering your question, I think it’s it’s it’s the selection process is mutually relevant. We are both selecting each other. So how how do we provide the opportunity for the candidate to make the most informed decision? Is this a team that they’re going to add value to.

Bernard Desmidt [00:35:55]:
Because once you’re in it, there there there’s a there’s a a very specific expectation around the uncompromising discipline and commitment to these disciplines.

Scott McCarthy [00:36:08]:
That’s a a a definitely an interesting take on on on that point of view and, you know, not something I’ve heard per se, in the past, but I I definitely can see the value of it. You know? Bringing someone in before. Yeah. You know? And, unfortunately, like, The all the hush-hush run the far hiring process this day and age. It’s hindering that. Now is our job as leaders is to find a way to, you know, around that. Stop using those as excuses, and let’s figure out a way to actually achieve the results that we want. And I I I like your thought process there.

Scott McCarthy [00:36:43]:
Like, okay. You know? Show people what it’s like for a day, for a week at at the job with the team and say, and then bring her in, like, you know, what do you think? Right. You know, do we Yeah. We think you could be a fit, but do you think you’re a fit? If not

Bernard Desmidt [00:37:01]:
And and how would you Yeah. And and how would you add value and how would you elevate this team? You know, it’s it’s the same thing, Scott. I I always you know, when when you look at mergers and acquisitions and and the due due diligence process. No. You know? I’ll declare my bias. I mean, you know, the balance sheet will get you to a point and, you know, the p and l, and, yeah, you’ve done all the numbers. No. No.

Bernard Desmidt [00:37:25]:
No. No. No. Just go sit in the executive team meeting. That’s the best due diligence you will ever do. See what’s on the agenda and not on the agenda, see what they speak about and not speak about, and see how they converse and relate. I think that would be the most profound form of due diligence ever done, Notwithstanding the importance of the p and l on the balance sheet and and all of that good stuff, but it guarantees nothing.

Scott McCarthy [00:37:55]:
No. Nothing. I absolutely agree. Bernard, my friend, this has been a great conversation, but, unfortunately, all good things come to an end. But before wrap up, I do got a couple last questions for you. The first being a, question asked all the guests here at the Peak Performance Leadership Podcast, and that is according to you, Bernard Desmond, what makes a great leader?

Bernard Desmidt [00:38:19]:
What makes a great leader? I I think there there are 4 things that come to mind here. Determination? I I I and and and when I say determination, this is not a selfish pursuit. This is This is the the belief in what’s possible. And the the other is is a deep sense of of of intuition, you know, trusting the deep sense of of wisdom that that that we bring, the the, you know, Accessing one’s essence, you know, and trusting one’s intuition. I think the other, probably most importantly, is Is is the the the curiosity. You know? How open am I to being influenced, to shifting beliefs, to to to to To showing up as a beginner. What what does that mean? To to show up accepting what I don’t know. And and I I guess the the 4th would be, Yeah.

Bernard Desmidt [00:39:17]:
Our our capacity to engage and and, you know, we spoke about trust. We spoke about the the intimacy. It’s it’s, You know, how do I leave people feeling after each conversation with me, each engagement with me? So I think I think, You know, determination, intuition, curiosity, and engagement are are the hallmarks of effective leaders and and, dare I say, effective

Scott McCarthy [00:39:43]:
teams. Oh, that’s great. And a follow-up question of the show, how can people find you, follow you, be part of your journey? Feel free to pitch the book. It’s all about you now.

Bernard Desmidt [00:39:52]:
Yeah. No. Lovely. Thank you. Thank you, Scott. Please, you know, jump onto the website, There’s a a heap of, collateral. There’s a little quick team quiz.

Bernard Desmidt [00:40:05]:
Takes you 30 seconds, and you’ll get a quick snapshot of of the team, the team descriptor as you see it. Subscribe to my weekly blog. There’s, topics and and themes of teams and leadership. So or or alternatively, just get in contact with me, and and, should you wish to pursue this conversation, be only too Too happy to do so.

Scott McCarthy [00:40:30]:
And for you listeners always, it’s easy. Just head to lead don’t boss.comforward/2 37237, and the links are in the show. It’s Bernard, my friend. Thank you again, sir. It’s so great to have you on the show today.

Bernard Desmidt [00:40:45]:
No. Thank thank you, Scott, and deeply appreciated and and privileged to be, on your show. And trust your audience have found this of of value and and interest.

Scott McCarthy [00:40:57]:
And that’s a wrap for this episode, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting the Peak Performance Leadership podcast. But you know what you could do to truly support the podcast and know that’s not leaving a rating and review. It’s simply helping a friend, and that is helping a friend by sharing this episode with them if you think this would resonate with them and help them elevate their performance level, whether that’s within themselves, their teams, or their organization. So do that. Help me. Help a friend.

Scott McCarthy [00:41:30]:
Win win all around. And, hey. You look like a great friend at the same time. So Just hit that little share button on your app, and then feel free to fire this episode to anyone that you feel would benefit from it. Finally, there’s always more. There’s always more lessons around being the highest performing leader that you can possibly be, whether that’s for yourself, your team, or your organization. So why don’t you subscribe? Subscribe to the show of the moving forward leadership .comforward/subscribe. Until next time, Don’t Boss, and thanks for coming out.

Scott McCarthy [00:42:12]:
Take care now.