High Performance Teams: The Three Pillars of Success | Tina Collins | Episode 328

Scott McCarthy [00:03:58]:
Tina Mab, so stoked to have you here. Thanks for joining me on the podcast today.

Tina Collins [00:04:02]:
I am so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me here.

Scott McCarthy [00:04:05]:
Yeah. We, we got introduced by a former guest, mister or retired general Scott Clancy, and we got, like, together. And then we had a quick call, and I think, like, within 2 seconds, like, yes. You’re coming on the show.

Tina Collins [00:04:18]:
Yeah. We get on, like, a house on fire. That is for sure. Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:04:24]:
So you we were talking before, and you mentioned you’re talking, like, different topics and stuff like this. It won’t immediately jump there at me, and that was the, you know, the aspects, what makes up a peak performing team. And that immediately hit my my my my thing. You said, hey. There’s research on the three things that make up a peak performing team. One of the topics which are near and dear to both of our hearts, we’ll we’ll leave that as a cliffhanger for the audience. But let let’s dive into that topic, shall we? And first question first question, I guess, like, okay. What are these three things that make up the peak performing team, and how do we know that they make up a peak performing team anyway?

Tina Collins [00:05:02]:
Okay. So there’s a ton of research. Psychology, much smarter people than I am, have done the legwork. They’ve researched it. They’ve done the statistical analysis, found the correlations and the causation, and they’ve narrowed it down to 3 basic elements. They’re not basic. They’re pretty complex, but but three ideas that contribute most significantly to high performance teams. You asked you want to leave the last one that I think

Scott McCarthy [00:05:30]:
Oh, David. Go ahead.

Tina Collins [00:05:31]:
Okay. Okay. So the first one is psychological safety. And how they measure that is in voice behavior. So the more a team feels safe to not only express themselves, but learn out loud, like, so ask questions, They are allowed to give feedback and receive feedback. They are allowed to make mistakes, like learn on the job. The safer they are to do those things and express themselves, the more likely they are to problem solve and be innovative. And that’s key because problems need to be solved in different ways.

Tina Collins [00:06:10]:
And which leads to my second point, which is cognitive diversity. So cognitive diversity is a tricky one because most people don’t know how they process information. So there’s lots of fun ways to explore this. For example, have you ever played Wordle?

Scott McCarthy [00:06:29]:
Actually, no.

Tina Collins [00:06:30]:
Okay.

Scott McCarthy [00:06:31]:
I’m like the only person in the world that

Tina Collins [00:06:32]:
has not played Wordle.

Scott McCarthy [00:06:34]:
I think I think

Tina Collins [00:06:35]:
I’m gonna send you a link later. We’re gonna play.

Scott McCarthy [00:06:37]:
So it’s good.

Tina Collins [00:06:37]:
Wordle Wordle’s a really fun example because my husband and I, every morning, that is almost the first thing that we do in the morning. And how he tackles his wordle is very different from mine, which led me to read like, it it it sort of shook something up in me that I really started paying attention to was how different he thinks. So it’s not just what you think, which also matters for cognitive diversity, but how you think. So I started noticing these things between the 2 of us because, obviously, we we live together, so I’ve got, like, a a really close sample that I get to sort of observe, and and I started noticing all of the ways that he thinks differently. Like, for example, at Christmas time, we do puzzles every single year. And how he tackles a puzzle, like, I mean, an actual puzzle, is almost the opposite of how I tackle a puzzle. And when we come together, that puzzle can literally come together in 30 minutes because we come at it from very different angles. And so when that’s included in your teams, so you’re allowed to express yourself, you’re allowed to think differently, you’re allowed to solve problems out loud, and then you really start leveraging how you think differently, it’s incredible, which then leads to my 3rd point.

Tina Collins [00:07:54]:
It’s not my 3rd point. It’s the 3rd point, our motivational drivers. So if you can identify what the intrinsic motivational drivers are for each individual and support them, give them what they need to to thrive. And I don’t mean extrinsic. Extrinsic meaning like paycheck, time off, those sorts of things that most organizations can’t control because there are policies, HR policies, all that kind of stuff. But if you can tap into their intrinsic, so what motivates you to be an amazing leader? Some people, it’s ego. Some people, it’s impact. Some people, it’s, the, you know, the dopamine hit whenever something good happens to someone else.

Tina Collins [00:08:35]:
So if you can tap into that, you’ve got it’s like the fire burning the engine. And I don’t know if I’m using an analogy that makes sense, but probably not. But, you know, you you got you got it.

Scott McCarthy [00:08:46]:
I got it. I got it.

Tina Collins [00:08:47]:
You know? Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:08:48]:
Yeah. So first off, you know, congratulations on being able to sit with your husband and do a puzzle over over Christmas. I will fully admit that does not happen in the McCarthy household much to my wife’s displeasure because I I can’t stand puzzles. Why? I hate them.

Tina Collins [00:09:08]:
Okay.

Scott McCarthy [00:09:08]:
It’s just it’s just doesn’t doesn’t do it for me. But I’ll tell you, though, so when you were talking about, like, the the portal, and and that, what came to my mind immediately was, I went back to my old school days, and I used to be a huge fan of those logic problems.

Tina Collins [00:09:27]:
There you go. There you go. Right. So what about those what were you so good at?

Scott McCarthy [00:09:32]:
I think it was figuring out the things that were in between the ones that weren’t said. Fascinating. Right? Like, so I could I could I could quickly, like, okay. So Scott, you know, you know, Scott has this, therefore, he doesn’t have all that, and then, you know, quickly go through and then figure out, well, if if Scott has this and Tina has that, then Jane there must have the other thing because, you know, each person can only have one thing, for example, in that scenario or whatever. Right? And it was just, you know, being able to figure those out. And and I could do Sudoku quite well too because of very similar things for

Tina Collins [00:10:09]:
for a similar

Scott McCarthy [00:10:10]:
way. Right? But put a put it like a puzzle in front of me, like, it ain’t happening.

Tina Collins [00:10:17]:
Is it is it that it’s too slow?

Scott McCarthy [00:10:19]:
Probably. I don’t know. Just get just get frustrated trying to feel, like, where does this piece go? Like, I I don’t know.

Tina Collins [00:10:27]:
But Yeah. It’s I mean, it’s fascinating. So, like, I’ve because of this, I have had this conversation with so many people. I’ve asked people, how do you solve a problem, a puzzle? Like an actual, like a 1,000 piece puzzle. And I am shocked at how many ways there are to put a puzzle together, which really speaks to cognitive diversity. And that’s the thing. We don’t talk about it because it’s not something that we talk about or explore. We just assume you’re doing a puzzle.

Tina Collins [00:10:55]:
You’re probably all trying to figure it out the same way. But that’s not the case at all.

Scott McCarthy [00:11:00]:
Oh, so that’s actually great. Let’s I think, let’s dive deeper into cognitive diversity because I wanna dive deeper into each each of those, obviously, for the so let’s dive deeper to cognitive diversity. So, like, you know, what are we looking at as a leader? Like, I’m a leader. I’m trying to you know, I’m given the project, and and the boss says, hey. Build your team. Go ahead. You kinda got, you know, pick. Like, what should I be looking for in that that domain, I guess, if you wanna call it that, of trying to figure, okay, I want, you know, diverse different ways of thinking.

Scott McCarthy [00:11:30]:
How do we know? Like, how do we figure that out?

Tina Collins [00:11:32]:
Well, I think that really great leaders are very curious leaders, and they have a unique gift in observation. So how I would go about figuring out someone’s cognitive skills or how they think, I should say, is to explore that with them. Like, how did you figure this out? And walk them through like, because people will say, well, I I just did. Because the the truth is that the vast majority of us think that everyone thinks exactly like we do, and that’s completely the opposite. And so if you can, like, slow things down a little and just say, like, could you explain to me exactly how did you figure that out? So, like, for example, putting a puzzle I’m gonna keep going back to the puzzle because it’s super easy.

Scott McCarthy [00:12:16]:
Yeah. It’s a super great example, actually, and everybody but me can relate to it. So go ahead.

Tina Collins [00:12:22]:
So, you know, puzzle pieces come in different shapes and different colors. And so, like, personally, and I think the vast majority of the world, we tackle the outside first. So it’s just all about boundary setting. Like, now we know what this boundary is and how big this puzzle piece is and what the grid system is gonna look like because they usually do follow some sort of grid. I look for for combination of things. Color, first, I sort them by color, and then shape because they usually come in a couple of very unique shapes. And from there, I just start putting them together based on their shape and color. My husband will take a piece and find where it goes on the on the picture.

Tina Collins [00:13:09]:
Like, he’s got the box in hand, and he figures out where that should be geographically in the grid, and he puts it on the table. That’s where it is. And, like, God forbid, we move it because then it doesn’t make any sense. So it’s it’s fascinating to me because I think, well, that’s you’re just that’s just a mess. You know? Because now it just looks like a bunch of random pieces everywhere. I mean, it works for him. And what’s really fun, he’s super competitive. And so when I come in and I start helping, because I just trial and error, trial and error, trial and error, things come together really quickly.

Tina Collins [00:13:46]:
And so then he starts moving faster because he’s he’s so competitive. So it’s really people I need to watch us put a puzzle piece or puzzle together. Yeah. So we usually do it, like, independently, but together. Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:13:57]:
I was just having a, like, a envisioning moment there of, like, the chess clock on the front of the puzzle table. You know, ding, your turn.

Tina Collins [00:14:05]:
That’s right. That’s right. It’s pretty much like that. Yeah. So That’s funny.

Scott McCarthy [00:14:09]:
Yeah. So I would, like if I was

Tina Collins [00:14:10]:
the boss I would be really curious and I would break down like how did you figure that out and be very curious. You know, I mean when I was looking at my husband I’m like what is happening here? And he, you know, he said, well, there is a grid system to the puzzle, and this goes about there. So if I can if I put it there, then I I can put the rest of it together. I think that’s absolutely I do find that really fascinating. And it shows up in a lot of things. Like okay. So you don’t play Wordle. New York Times has another game called Connections.

Tina Collins [00:14:40]:
They give you 16 words, and you have to find the connection in 4 categories. He really struggles with connecting the words together. And I’m like, how do you not connect these? So that is another way to measure your cognitive diversity. I mean, it’s often really simple to see. People are either very detail oriented. Like, if you have project managers who really care about details, that shows up in their work, versus someone like me who’s very big picture and like, well, what if we did this, and maybe we should try this? And that’s a whole other set of skills. So staying curious and really paying attention, I think, really goes a long way for leaders.

Scott McCarthy [00:15:29]:
Now I hear you. It’s a interview is coming to me, but I can’t remember exactly who it was. But I recall them talking about basically, you know, 4 different types of of leaders and different types of workers. And, basically, one was, like, a visionary, another was, like, you know, the firefighter. There was the and, ultimately, what I’m hearing out of it, this is, like, that cognitive diversity because we all tackle problems in a different way. Yeah. So, for example, back in the day, when I was a young captain, I was known as a firefighter. You got a problem, like, a problem.

Scott McCarthy [00:16:05]:
Something’s going off the rails, give this Scott because done. Right? Because I would, like, go, okay. Alright. What’s what’s the current situation? Alright. Let’s you know, what’s the problem? Where are we off the rails here? What needs you know, where are we at? Where do we need to be? What’s what’s missing in the middle here? And how do we get that missing middle put back into the middle? Right? And the way we go. Now I was like that, but also meant I couldn’t be other things. I couldn’t be the visionary because it was already set for me. Mhmm.

Scott McCarthy [00:16:34]:
I couldn’t be the person to lay things kinda in place, the big planner because, well, the plan was there and or wasn’t there.

Tina Collins [00:16:41]:
Right.

Scott McCarthy [00:16:42]:
Right? And I I and I definitely wasn’t a creative type. Right? Like, coming up with, oh, we’ve got the time because we didn’t have the time to be creative. And that’s kinda what what I’m hearing from you is if we have the different types of people in our team, it’s just gonna make our team that much stronger because everyone kinda has a different role, a different piece of the pie. But that when you put all those pieces together, it makes that whole pie.

Tina Collins [00:17:06]:
Absolutely. What a strength that you didn’t mention that I’m willing to bet dollars to doughnuts was an integral element in your leadership, was your ability to stay calm during the crisis. That’s very unique, very, very unique. And so that in itself is how you think. You know? I mean, we’ve met leaders who fly off the handle, who who have a really tough time regulating emotions, and it shows up. Good for you.

Scott McCarthy [00:17:38]:
I’m gonna tell a quick story. I know this is your interview, but I wanna tell this quick story because it winds up perfectly with this with this topic. For the listener, I’m actually probably for the first time ever going to get explicit on this show. So if you got little ones listening, please hit pause. So when I was in that job, I had, you know, things were going off the rails, and I was like tied up all day long. I had 50,000,000 meetings I needed to go to, and I had a small team. It was me and, let me think here, quick count, 7 other folks that worked for me. I was the operations officer of our training center.

Scott McCarthy [00:18:10]:
So, I was we were responsible for recording all the things needed to run courses, 36 100 courses a year, thousands of students per year. It was crazy busy. And, anyway, it was a lot of things were getting messed up. And it wasn’t my team’s fault, but it just was. So we had this area which we called the bullpen, which 5 of the team members worked, and I walked in. I said, fuck, guys. Everything’s fucked up. And I walked up.

Scott McCarthy [00:18:34]:
I said I went to the whiteboard there and took out a marker. I did big letters, unfuck. And I underline. I said, if you’re doing anything, you’re working on unfucking something that’s fucked up today for the love of God. And I’m like, it’s not your fault, but it this is what I need you to focus your attention on right now. That story went, like, wildfire. That’s

Tina Collins [00:18:58]:
funny.

Scott McCarthy [00:18:59]:
But, you know, the world of the story is, like, this is where I need your attention. Like, we need, you know, we need you to go after these fires right now. If if we don’t fix it, that means training is not gonna happen. And if training doesn’t happen, the whole mission of the school is at jeopardy.

Tina Collins [00:19:16]:
Yeah. I mean, you’re talking about motivational drivers, and what you explored with your team in that those moments was authenticity. And Right. Nothing is more impactful in leadership than authenticity. People can feel it. People can feel it. You know? Definitely. Yeah.

Tina Collins [00:19:38]:
So even though you used spicy words, I’m here for it. I mean, I am swearing that, you know, that wouldn’t bother me at all. But, it’s Well,

Scott McCarthy [00:19:46]:
I think, you know and and feel free to let me know if I’m right or wrong, but I feel like I don’t talk like that all the time. But when I do, I think what happens is it shows to the team, like, holy crap. Like but this is, like, legit he is legitimately serious, right, when when Yeah. When when that happens. Right?

Tina Collins [00:20:06]:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I’m sweary. I strategically position swear words, you know, and they don’t come out all the time. I mean, I used to work in a bullpen and a gentleman worked in he was a department head, and we used to always joke that one day we would take a shot every time he swore, and everyone was worried about us because we would die. Because I don’t think he could say a word without following it up with f. Like, it it was almost like a tick. You know? It was it was pretty funny.

Tina Collins [00:20:40]:
Anyway, that’s that’s on the other extreme.

Scott McCarthy [00:20:43]:
Yeah. For sure. We all know someone like that. That’s awesome. Alright. Love it. I I you know, cognitive differences, I think we’ve we’ve we’ve hit that one. And, actually, let’s move into what you talked about first, which is the topic near and dear.

Scott McCarthy [00:20:55]:
Both are our hearts, which is psychological safety. Actually, I have another story, about that same job in psychological safety. Let’s hear from you. You’re the expert here, not I. So we’re both super fans of Tim Clark, but I would love to hear about psychological safety from from your viewpoint because we all take these things in, I find, and then we kinda add our flavor to it with with the foundation set from, you know, the person who’s done the hard work, which I would say in this case is Tim. But I would love to hear from your side about psychological safety and establishing that with teams.

Tina Collins [00:21:29]:
It is one of my favorite topics because once they ex you know, teams start exploring what it is and how to implement it, the changes happen quickly. It’s incredible. I mean, it makes so much sense. You know, if well, I mean, Maslow’s hierarchy, I know it’s a tricky, challenging hierarchy system because it should never been a hierarchy, but but the the safety is the bottom tier, which makes a lot of sense. When you think about physical safety, if you are not physically safe, it’s impossible to build a house, cultivate food, cultivate land, go hunting. You know, like, we’re talking basic, basic needs. But I love psychological safety in there too, like, also. If you don’t have psychological safety, how can you ask for help? How can you offer help? How can you admit mistakes? How can you problem solve, offer solutions? You can’t.

Tina Collins [00:22:30]:
So we we explore what it is, how to do it, and, of course, I try to do it with a lot of fun because that’s my favorite effort. Yeah. I mean, we’ve all been on a team. When I describe what psychological safety is and is not, every single person in the room has a story of a time where they were unpsychologically safe and what the impact of that was. Everybody knows what it feels like to feel unpsychologically safe. And the thing is is that most of us are always feeling unpsych unpsychologically safe. It’s when you give them an alternative that it’s such a huge eye opener to them.

Scott McCarthy [00:23:08]:
Now why is that? Why why do we all feel, you know, unsatisfying and psychologically safe more often than we do?

Tina Collins [00:23:16]:
Well, I think it starts early in our lives. I’m from a generation where you did not ask questions, and so the natural curiosity that children have in my generation was squashed. I mean, we were not allowed to speak. We were not allowed to ask questions. We were definitely not allowed to express ourselves. My god. I mean, really, it was all about conforming, conforming. And, like, to some extent, that happens still, you know, in schools, religious structures.

Tina Collins [00:23:47]:
Society works really well when everybody conforms, but there needs to be a space there where we are also allowed to explore and express ourselves in our own way.

Scott McCarthy [00:23:59]:
Right. Alright. I hear you. I’m just trying to think, like, the army is such a great slash not great example of this. Huge.

Tina Collins [00:24:08]:
Huge. Yeah. I mean, I I can share really quickly. I worked

Scott McCarthy [00:24:12]:
on

Tina Collins [00:24:12]:
a team for many, many years in in the Canadian Forces. And the the first person who I worked under worked so diligently and consistently to create psychological safety. And at the time, that’s not what we called it. We were just like, he is the nicest guy on the planet. Made sure that everyone had space, even, like, during, o group meetings. He would ask everybody, including the admin assistants, if there was anything that they wanted to say. He gave a voice to everyone. He included every and everybody had their time.

Tina Collins [00:24:45]:
He did an extraordinary job at creating psychological safety, which allowed us to flatten the management structure, get different players into a room solving different problems in different ways because IQ really nurtured all of all of the the competencies of high performance teams. And sincerely, he probably didn’t know what he was doing. He was he was just, like, the nicest guy. And as you and I know, 3 years pass, he gets replaced by an individual who is exceptionally, exceptionally brilliant in problem solving and prob project management, but not in people management. And so we went from having 3 years of it would surprise me if people even took time off. Like, everyone loved coming to work. It was our favorite thing to do. In fact, that core group, we still get together at least once a year.

Tina Collins [00:25:45]:
And this is like 14 years later. It was such a powerful and and that’s actually a key to high performance teams is if you can create a team that is so cohesive that they feel like that they’re legitimately family, sick days reduce, turnover reduces. You don’t have to go looking for new staff because no one’s leaving. And this is what had happened in those 3 years. People were chomping at the bit to stay. Like, they were passing over promotion to stay. It was such an incredible environment. And then he was replaced by someone who honestly taught me so much.

Tina Collins [00:26:23]:
Brilliant human being. But his his leadership style, which was he was either everyone’s best friend or he was about to fire someone, created so much uncertainty and anxiety that it really started to take a toll on not just our output, like our productivity, but people, for the first time, asked to be posted out. I mean, that like, if that wasn’t a red flag, you know, I mean, people were opting to leave. They were taking more time off, vacation time, unpaid time. Reservists were MIA for months on end. There was a significant shift in our culture. We still got the job done, and arguably, he had a huge role to play in that. But one style was more patient, more you know, there was just more space, and the other was take no prisoner.

Tina Collins [00:27:18]:
Yeah.

Scott McCarthy [00:27:19]:
Yeah. I know.

Tina Collins [00:27:20]:
I mean, it was it was amazing time for me because my god did I learn a lot.

Scott McCarthy [00:27:25]:
Yeah. I have a very similar very similar experience where we had

Tina Collins [00:27:29]:
Oh, really?

Scott McCarthy [00:27:30]:
Probably, actually, I would argue, similar, but yet very much worse than what you described, Yeah. Brutally honest.

Tina Collins [00:27:40]:
Are you allowed to share that?

Scott McCarthy [00:27:41]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I’m gonna share it. I share it very

Tina Collins [00:27:43]:
quick. Good. Good. I’m

Scott McCarthy [00:27:44]:
not gonna say names. I never say names, but I’ll I’ll I’ll share their experience. Back to the opso jobs. I have so many stories from that job, But it was my final year. So my final year in the summer, of course, we had the previous, CEO, who was fantastic. You know, the unit was on the up and up. Was she the greatest leader, I say, that would ever grace the earth? No. But she had some amazing qualities.

Scott McCarthy [00:28:10]:
She was humble. I could talk to her easy. I could bring problems to her. I’m letting you know this is going on. I don’t have solutions right now, but we’re we’re working it. Right? You know, but I don’t want you get, you know, caught up or whatever. Okay. Cool.

Scott McCarthy [00:28:22]:
Okay. You know, I felt like she trusted me. And then, changed out in summer as as you know, and then, mock mock 5 nose dive thing within the unit. Right? And and and every time I would go to this person’s office, I I didn’t know who was out I was getting. I I like, I would come with a, you know, heads up. Me thinking, okay. This isn’t a big deal. I swear, like, she was about to throw stuff at me, and then going in another time and being like, has not, this is, you know, thinking, okay.

Scott McCarthy [00:28:55]:
This is a big deal and getting, don’t worry about it. I’m like, no. This is, like, a legit big deal. Like, the minor thing you were ready to throw, so you had to plant at me on the on the on the table there, but, like, this, you’re telling me not to worry about it. Like, what’s going on? And, the true marker, kinda similar to what you had identified was, I was at our base clinic one day. I knew a fair bit of people over there because, I was my wife was, worked there at one point, and, I was in on that that the community per se over there. Someone pulled me aside. I was like, Scott.

Scott McCarthy [00:29:32]:
Yeah. Like, what’s going on at your unit? I said, what do you mean? They’re like, we’ve noted a substantial increase in sick leave, mental health referrals, and, you know, physical ailments, blah blah blah. And I said, well, if you do the time analysis of that, that probably cross references with another event that has occurred. I didn’t obviously give full details because that would if that got in, I’d be I’d be toasted myself. Right? But, you know, kinda kinda led them towards where the fish were, per se. But but it was it was terrible. And it was just like, okay. This is how I how I don’t wanna be when I get there.

Scott McCarthy [00:30:13]:
I definitely do not wanna be how I, you know, when I get there. You know? It’s such a it was such a learning environment for me and, you know, in ways of how not to be, in ways how to be, which is sad. C’est la vie, as we say.

Tina Collins [00:30:28]:
Yeah. And I’m sorry you had to go through that and felt that reporting it would damage your reputation or damage you in some way because leaders need to be held accountable.

Scott McCarthy [00:30:44]:
Yeah.

Tina Collins [00:30:44]:
And how on earth could this individual learn that her behavior was harming her staff without someone saying, oh, excuse me. This behavior in particular is damaging, which brings me to a point that we have not discussed. Let’s

Scott McCarthy [00:31:02]:
do it.

Tina Collins [00:31:03]:
I definitely overlooked it. But you and I have talked about leaders that we’ve worked with who have inspired us to be better. And I think, like, a major secret sauce to super high performing teams is a leader that is emotionally regulated.

Scott McCarthy [00:31:23]:
Mhmm. Yes. Yes. I’m sure.

Tina Collins [00:31:27]:
You know, someone who is aware. Oh, yes. Oh, you’re triggering me right now. I’m feeling triggered. But instead of lashing out at you and throwing a stapler at you Right. You know, because the photocopier is not working, I’m gonna check myself and figure out what on earth is happening.

Scott McCarthy [00:31:46]:
That makes so much sense for sure because that’s exactly what we didn’t get. And let me tell you, everybody felt it. Everyone. And, you know, and just to wrap that story up, that person got awarded the order of military merit, which I’m sure you know is, like, a super high award. And, when it got pinned on under chest, it was like it was a golf clap in the room. You know what I mean? Like, it was like

Tina Collins [00:32:13]:
Well, you know, and that actually speaks to a whole other thing that happens on teams. You and I know that a team can only be as strong as the worst behavior that is tolerated. And if the leader is being rewarded for observable bad behavior, holy shit. Everyone is watching, thinking, why should I do anything decent here? Like, what’s the point of being good and doing good when this person who clearly is flawed is being rewarded. That’s why, what’s that expression, quiet quitting? Like, I have seen that over and over again where people do the minimum amount of work to keep their job, and everyone wonders, well, this person’s lazy, or this person’s this. No, no, actually, they’ve completely, you know, shut down to the system. Yeah, they’re shut down with this, like why should they do good things and work hard and be motivated and use all their cognitive skills in order to problem solve when bad behavior is being rewarded?

Scott McCarthy [00:33:21]:
And I think that’s such a great segue into the final part, which is the, you know, the the motivation aspect of this. Right? So can we dive deeper there, please? Like, when you talk about it, like, what what are the different types of motivators for people out there? Obviously, money is 1, but it’s not the end all be all. Because I remember just quick before you kick off. I remember reading an article, and this was quite some time ago. So it’s probably about 10 years ago now. So, obviously, the numbers change with inflation and stuff like this. But they said, I think 80,000 was the number of which if someone hits that number, the money becomes a significantly a less motivator for them because they basically can live a good standard life without overall having worries. You know, they can put a roof over their head and drive a car.

Scott McCarthy [00:34:08]:
They can feed their family. They can go on a vacation every year. You know, it was basically 80 k, which which I when I and that and I’ll I’ll I’ll I’ll double down. When I read that article, I was like, holy crap. Like, I’ve just recently been promoted. So I got a nice little bump in pay. And I was like, you know what? If they if the army came to me, he said, you know, we’ll adjust your pay, but it’s not gonna be a huge bump. It will just be a, you know, adjustment for inflation, but we’re gonna give you an extra 5 days off a year.

Scott McCarthy [00:34:37]:
I would have really considered.

Tina Collins [00:34:39]:
Yes. Absolutely.

Scott McCarthy [00:34:40]:
And it was right around the equivalent Canadian to, you know, of 80 k Americans. So, you know, what are some other motivators out there that, leaders can tap into for their teams?

Tina Collins [00:34:51]:
Research has shown that money is almost never a motivator. So motivation is boiled down into, I mean, think of a quadrant. It’s either internal, intrinsic, or extrinsic, internal or external, and it’s done through one of 2 things, excitement and joy. You know, like, are you just excited because you’re gonna do this thing? Or fear. I’m I’m terrified that I’m gonna lose my job or I’m or I’m I’m afraid I’m gonna look stupid. Though, like, it’s it’s basically you draw a box. Everything can fit into those 4 quadrants. So some of the motivators that leaders can well, I mean, it seems so simple, actually.

Tina Collins [00:35:38]:
Ask the individual. You know, I mean, learning and development opportunities are incredible. Most people are naturally curious and want to learn. And what I have noticed, and I’m I there’s this is very well researched. A lot of organizations don’t want to provide ongoing training and learning opportunities for their staff because they are concerned that if they do, their staff will leave. And it’s funny because it’s almost like a self fulfilling prophecy because they so they don’t invest, and then, of course, the person leaves because there’s learning and training opportunities elsewhere. So I would say learning and training opportunities, yeah, ask them what sets you on fire. It could be a little bit more autonomy, which seems so simple.

Tina Collins [00:36:30]:
Treat me like an adult. Like, if I have to go to the doctor’s office, I please don’t make me have to report to someone that I had to go to the doctor’s office. Like, trust me that I’m an adult, that I’m gonna do the thing that I’m gonna say. You know, base my performance on performance objectives, not hours that my ass is in the seat. You know, like, there’s just so many so many things that we could do that are completely unrelated to money that make an environment feel good. It’s actually really simple. Just treat humans like humans.

Scott McCarthy [00:37:05]:
Yeah. It’s funny, the last bit there that you mentioned, like, you know, based it on performance objectives, not hours and seeds, and I just memories flooding back. Don’t get me wrong. My my my supervisor at the time is not he wasn’t a bad guy, but he was a clock watcher. Right? Like, he knew the minute you walked in and the minute you’ve left. Right? And he would make comments, and and that’s pretty much not my style. So we actually there was a way to leave without him seeing, you know, bypassed his office. And I would I would occasionally do that because, the I was at was a high readiness unit.

Scott McCarthy [00:37:41]:
So for the audience, it means we were at short notice. We could do it every day. I would show up to work basically not knowing if I was going home that night. And sometimes, you know, when there’s work to be done, You know, we or if there was something to do, there was to be done, and other times, there was nothing to do. So why do it there? And my oldest just showed up sick, and I I think Nope. Oh, he just came by. Oh, he’s he’s bragging that his Florida Panthers are up with nothing as he swatches.

Tina Collins [00:38:12]:
That is important.

Scott McCarthy [00:38:14]:
Anyway, of course, it is. Anyway, so, you know, the funny story. Like, he wasn’t a bad guy, but he was that clock watcher. Eventually, I ended up taking over that role. And, I had told the team, I said, guys, you you got things to do. I expect you to do them. If you have nothing to do, I don’t care. Right? And and because end of the day, I still think we came out you know, they their personal time came on the negative because it was extremely busy 2 years.

Tina Collins [00:38:43]:
Well, yeah. Of course. It, it does all even out. It really does. I, I once worked for, a gentleman, the CEO. His office was right right next to mine. I mean, I could I could hear him breathing. Like, the the walls were so thin.

Tina Collins [00:38:57]:
And because I’ve spent most of my life in consulting, being an entrepreneur, I I can work relatively efficiently, quickly. I would plow through 2 weeks worth of work in 3 or 4 days, and then I would go to him and ask him, like, what else can I do? Can I set up a new system for this? Can we implement new performance metrics? Can I do some training with the staff? We bugged him so often for more work, and he would say, you need to slow down. You need to like, we do not work at this pace. You’re driving me crazy. I’m driving you crazy. I mean, it was mutual. I really, really liked this individual. We had a lot of respect for each other.

Tina Collins [00:39:38]:
And he’s and I said, well, could I work from home? Like, that that seems like a a great alternative. I only live 7 minutes away. If you need me, I’ll come into the office. No problem. And he said, if I let you work from home, I have to let everyone else work from home. So I said, well, what’s the alternative then? And he said, run your consultancy from your desk. So I worked for this organization and ran my business from my office because having my butt in the chair was more important than anything else. And I thought that’s a crazy KPI, you know, especially when, like, you know, sitting is the new cancer.

Tina Collins [00:40:17]:
You know? Yes. I think that’s just fascinating to me.

Scott McCarthy [00:40:20]:
Yeah. That’s, no. For sure, that’s a great story, Tina. Thank you so much. Hey. Yo. We hit on psychological safety. We hit on cognitive differences, and now we’re talking about motivational factors.

Scott McCarthy [00:40:30]:
Is there anything else that you think is super important for, you know, this topic of building high performing teams that we haven’t hit yet?

Tina Collins [00:40:37]:
I could probably talk about this for days on

Scott McCarthy [00:40:39]:
end. Probably.

Tina Collins [00:40:40]:
Yeah. But, I mean, if there’s anything I would say is to leaders to explore all of this first before asking others to do it.

Scott McCarthy [00:40:52]:
Yeah. No. Absolutely. Yeah. I always say start with your with yourself first. And it was interesting because I was having a chat with one of my guys at work, and we were talking about a problem. And and my question to him was, well, are we the source? And he was just like, oh. He’s like, you know, because I find everyone you know, leaders were so quick to say necessarily blame others, but look at others.

Scott McCarthy [00:41:13]:
Like, are we the cause of this? Or we don’t know yet. But that’s a question we need to answer, so I absolutely love it. And one of the 3 domains of leadership. So I talk about 3 domains of leadership, them being leading your team, which is what we talked about today, leading your organization, which is the institution, but most importantly, I say, is leading yourself. You know, you as the leader, and that’s probably, I would argue, the most important. Like, that’s the one you gotta

Tina Collins [00:41:36]:
100%. 100%. Because even when everything goes to pot, you still played a role.

Scott McCarthy [00:41:44]:
Absolutely.

Tina Collins [00:41:45]:
So if you can figure out what your role was in the mess or in the success, you’re halfway there.

Scott McCarthy [00:41:52]:
Beautiful. Tina, I knew this would be a great conversation. Love it. Absolutely love it. I think

Tina Collins [00:41:57]:
we’re gonna have to do me on.

Scott McCarthy [00:41:59]:
I think we’re gonna have to do a route 2. I think we’re gonna have to bring you back and and go for route 2 later. But in the interim, where can people find you, follow you, be part of your journey? Shameless plug. It’s all but you right now.

Tina Collins [00:42:10]:
I would love for people to connect with me on LinkedIn. I’m Tina l Collins, and my page is rethinquery. And that’s where they can find me also on on my website is rethinquery.ca. And, yeah, I would love for people to connect with me there. I talk all things leadership, and I have a lot of fun doing it.

Scott McCarthy [00:42:30]:
Awesome. And for the listeners, always, it’s easy. Just go to the show notes of this episode, which is the episode number and digits, .comforward/ the episode number and digits, and the links will be there in the show notes for you. Again, Tina, thank you. Take your time. You’ve been fantastic. No doubt the audiences love this. Appreciate

Tina Collins [00:42:48]:
it. Thank you so much.