Welcome back to Peak Performance Leadership, the podcast where we explore the secrets of exceptional leadership and bring you expert insights from renowned guests. I’m your host, Scott McCarthy, and today we have two exceptional guests joining us: Bob DeKoch and Phil Clampitt.
In this episode, Bob and Phil dive into the concept of servant leadership and go beyond its traditional definition. Drawing on Bob’s 20 years of military experience as a senior Canadian army officer, we’ll explore the deep and profound question they aim to answer in their book.
Believing that great leaders are driven by a core belief set, Bob and Phil explain how these leaders implement their beliefs throughout their careers, influencing and infecting those they work with. However, they also highlight a disconnect between beliefs and practices in today’s society.
During our conversation, we touch on the dark side of leadership, where individuals climb the ranks by stepping on others, causing destruction in their wake. Bob has personally witnessed this destructive behavior and aims to make a change by inspiring people to become better leaders. Through their book and podcast, they explore the twin issues of lacking underlying beliefs and the absence of proper practices that hinder true servant leadership.
We also delve into a model they describe as the caring approach to leadership. Initially uncertain about the word “caring,” Bob and Phil stress the importance of a deeper level of investment in people’s development for long-term success. By using examples from healthcare workers, we’ll understand how caring leadership can achieve lasting lifestyle changes and shape the future of organizations.
Furthermore, we address the crucial topic of tough decisions in organizations, where budgets need to be met and, sometimes, layoffs are unavoidable. However, Bob and Phil advocate for a caring leader who engages with the organization, educates them on financial matters, and involves them in finding cost-effective solutions. They differentiate between involving employees in decision-making and simply imposing decisions on them, all while emphasizing the long-term sustainability of the organization.
In their book, Bob and Phil assert that the purpose of a business should be to save lives, a perspective that has the potential to shift paradigms. We’ll explore this idea and its impact on individuals and organizations, using discussions about identity and values as a guide.
Throughout our conversation, we touch on the importance of effective communication, the alignment of company culture with mission and values, and the necessity of upholding values even in the face of organizational deception.
Join us as we uncover the secrets of peak performance leadership and discover how great leaders can truly make a difference. So grab your headphones, tune in, and let’s dive into this captivating episode of Peak Performance Leadership with Bob DeKoch and Phil Clampitt.
Servant Leader Topics
During this interview Bob, Phil, and I discuss the following topics:
- 00:06:13 Cynicism, disrespect, bad leadership – inspire better leaders.
- 00:08:13 Observing people who lack genuine servant leadership.
- 00:13:24 Leadership and results matter in podcast.
- 00:15:28 Tough decisions in organizations require financial planning.
- 00:17:31 Businesses save lives by providing salaries.
- 00:22:55 Identity and values shape behavior and decisions.
- 00:26:01 Awareness of values is crucial for organizations.
- 00:28:41 Ground values in behaviors; lead by example.
- 00:32:09 Two categories, WIFM and WIFO; communicate effectively.
- 00:35:49 The challenge for executives: communicating in multiple ways.
- 00:39:05 “Deep beliefs drive leaders to influence others.”
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The following is an AI generated transcript which should be used for reference purposes only. It has not been verified or edited to reflect what was actually said in the podcast episode.
Scott McCarthy [00:00:01]:
On episode 253 of the peak performance leadership podcast, we speak to Bob Dakosh and Phil Clampett, and they’re gonna tell you why servant leadership is just service level. If you wanna be a leader who truly cares, then you need to go deeper. That’s right, folks. We’re going beyond servant leader today. Are you ready for this? Alright. Let’s do it. Welcome one. Welcome all to the Peak Performance Leadership podcast, a weekly podcast series dedicated to helping you hit peak performance across the three domains of leadership.
Scott McCarthy [00:00:41]:
Those being leading yourself, leading your team, and leading your organization. This podcast couples my 20 years of military experience as a senior Canadian army officer with world class guests bringing you the most complete podcast on leadership going. And for more, feel free to check out our website at moving forward leadership .com. And with that, let’s get to the show. Yes. Welcome and welcome all to the PeoplePerfords Leadership podcast. It is your chief leadership officer, Scott McCarthy, and it’s so good to Have you here? And today, we are diving into what it means to be beyond a servant leader, which is Pretty interesting when you think about it because I remember probably a couple years ago how servant leadership was all the rage of the time. I mean, it was all about being a servant leader, serving this, serving that, serving leaders, serving leaders, serving leader.
Scott McCarthy [00:01:48]:
And here we have Bob and Phil coming on the show, and they’re gonna talk to you about why that’s just surface level. And that’s not really getting deep to being a leader. And you know as leaders that That’s where we need to get to to really connect with our people. So that’s why I had them on the show. That’s why you’re gonna be listening to them. And here’s a few statistics which are just shockers, and this comes right out of their book. Recently released that only 15% of Employees in US are truly engaged in their workplace, yet nearly 70% employees say they would work harder if they felt more appreciated. Over 90% of employees survey believe that their leadership, I e, the people, lacked communication skills to lead.
Scott McCarthy [00:02:47]:
These are horrible statistics. And I guess in some regards, that’s shocking to me because This is why I do what I do. This e these statistics are the reason why I do this to make sure that you Do not be part of those statistics that you as a leader and not a boss are on the other side of the coin and being one of the ones that are being is being praised and that people are ready and willing to follow. So that is the topic today. That, ladies and gentlemen, is setting the stage. So you know what? That’s enough for me. So sit back, relax, and enjoy my conversation about being beyond a servant leader of Bob Takash and Phil Clampett. Gentlemen, welcome to the Peak Performance Leadership podcast.
Scott McCarthy [00:03:59]:
It’s so good to have you both here today.
Bob DeKoch [00:04:02]:
Well, Scott, we’re very happy to be with you today. Very exciting.
Phil Clampitt [00:04:06]:
That’s very exciting to be with you too as well.
Scott McCarthy [00:04:09]:
Awesome. So we got Bob. We got Phil. Gentlemen, I want to lead the show off with a quote which was actually in the pitch you flicked over or your publicist flicked over to me. And that is that the Gallup recently reported only 15% of employees in the US are truly engaged in their workplace, yet nearly 70% of employees said they would work harder if they felt more appreciated. And over 90% of employees surveyed believe their leadership The their leadership, I e, their supervisors and such as I read it, lacked communication skills to lead. How the heck do we get here in the 1st place? Because these statistics are
Bob DeKoch [00:04:50]:
brutal. Well, they’re very brutal. And, frankly, this is Pre pandemic statistics. There were worse after that. And this Gallup pool has been going on for a number of years. And If you go back and look, things haven’t improved that much over a period of years even though we work on all of these various leadership models that Report to improve these very things. And 15% engagement, People would work 70% would work harder if they felt more appreciated. That’s all low hanging fruit, and we saw that And that along with a lot of the research that we were doing, and practice said this has gotta be the premise for the book.
Bob DeKoch [00:05:40]:
This has gotta be the case for change. Because if the leadership models were working, How in the world would we end up with these kind of numbers? And you put that alongside of the Disrespect and cynicism and all that stuff going on, it’s just a calamity. The leadership that way the leadership that we’re doing is not engaging people, clearly.
Scott McCarthy [00:06:13]:
You know, you mentioned the cynicism and disrespect and all those negative things, and the tagline for this show’s lead, don’t boss. And that is exactly where, you know, my standpoint is coming from too because I’ve seen enough of myself in that, you know, leaders out there just kinda getting you know, they’re climbing the ranks because they’re stepping on people’s backs to get their advice, Taking their people and pushing them up, you know, taking them along. You know, they’re using them as the stepping post and and kinda just, you know, just, you know, leaving path to destruction in their wake as as they go ahead. It’s it’s just horrible to see. And so many I I have so many bad lessons learned that and it’s like, I gotta do something about this. So you guys wrote a book. I started a podcast. Here we are, hopefully, you know, inspiring people out there to be better leaders today.
Scott McCarthy [00:07:03]:
Now you guys are wrote a book, and it’s lead Leading with Care Beyond Servant Leadership, which is quite interesting to me. So where did the inspiration to go beyond servant leadership, come from in the 1st place?
Phil Clampitt [00:07:20]:
That’s a great question. And, I love that you set this up, that that the statistics are brutal at this point. And so we thought, You know, servant leadership has been out there for a long, long time. Went back we both went back and reread the original research and, the book. And, you know, it said all the right things, but clearly something wasn’t working. And so that was when we got the idea. Well, maybe we need to go beyond servant leadership and address Some of the concerns, that have emerged really since that book was written years years ago. And and then the 2 concerns, which I think Resume a lot with what I understand your, approach to leadership is all about is that, we have people who Maybe have the right sentiments that are expressed, in the servant leadership book, and those are, the right beliefs, we call them, but they don’t know how to do it.
Phil Clampitt [00:08:13]:
And then the people that I’ve observed and and in some ways, Scott, you probably have as well, it sounds like, are people who have some of the practices, and they but they really don’t have the underlying beliefs or perspective to do it. So for example, we have people who, like, solicit feedback, but they never really listen to it, and they never really onto it, and they they they do what I call full engagement. And so those are the 2 kind of, twin issues that we were trying to deal with and why we think we go I’m serving leadership because we say, hey. You gotta start with a great set of beliefs. You gotta know how to practice them, but you also have to have the right, practices, they have to if you have these practices, you have to have the underlying beliefs that’s going to support those. Otherwise, you’re not a genuine person. You’re not you’re not allowing, The the real benefits to flow of some of some of the classic servant leadership ideas.
Bob DeKoch [00:09:13]:
You know, I’d I’d add, to that. The word care is very intentional in this book, Leading With Care. And that is a much deeper idea, a bigger idea than serving. It goes much further than serving. And so let’s maybe take an example of that with a couple of classical job. If you walk into a restaurant, you have a a waiter that serves you. So they greet you. They ask you if they can get you something to drink.
Bob DeKoch [00:09:51]:
They show you the menu. You make some choices. What would you like, sir or madame? Tell us what you want. We’re gonna serve you today. Contrast that with a health care worker whose approach is, how can I help you feel better? What are the problems today that you’re facing? What are the physical things that you’re going through, and how can the things that I do with you care for that, that hurt that you have. You wouldn’t think of a waiter coming to you and starting to talk about What’s your dietary requirements are or what’s your health menu ought to be. And equally, you wouldn’t want a A nurse to come into your room and give you a menu of things that she’s gonna serve you. Service is a less, substantial idea than caring, and people need to have a sense of caring.
Bob DeKoch [00:10:50]:
And organizations need to have a sense of caring That their leaders care about the outcomes. So those things altogether are how we’ve positioned this book.
Scott McCarthy [00:11:03]:
That sounds really interesting to me. So as I hear it, you’re essentially saying you know? And, again, this is how I hear it, but servant leadership’s kinda superficial, kinda there, you know, 1 and done per se. You know? Here, let me what do you need? Okay. I’ll take care of you. I’ll get you what you want or need, whereas what you’re talking about in leading with care is that, you know, that deeper need, you know, ensuring that the people are well-being and everything about it is taken care of, you know, to that deeper core level.
Bob DeKoch [00:11:37]:
Yep. Yeah. Exactly right. Exactly right.
Phil Clampitt [00:11:40]:
I think it also, Scott, deals with investing In people that, the caring model is really about investing in people. In fact, when Bob and I wrote the book, the 1st time we got together and he proposed the word caring, I kinda went, no. I don’t know if I can live with that word Because it it has all these kind of overtones of empathy. And and and there’s nothing wrong with that, but I saw people who had full empathy, and then we started a deeper discussion. And we realized that You were talking about kind of a deep caring, where you’re invested in the long term per, per people that you’re out there with. You’re trying to be Developmentally focused. I think that’s why the health care worker makes an example. We’re looking at long term lifestyle changes, long term things that That would do to make you more successful and accomplish what you wanna accomplish in life.
Phil Clampitt [00:12:38]:
And that’s a different kind of caring than Then that’s then just in empathy, so it’s kind of on top of it. And that’s why we called it Beyond. So we had quite a, quite a robust discussion debate about the word caring.
Scott McCarthy [00:12:56]:
You didn’t want it to sound too soft and cushy, Phil. Is that it?
Bob DeKoch [00:13:01]:
Well, it, you know, people mistake and say, well, you can’t be you can’t cure so much. This is a hard nosed world. Well, the kind the flip side of that is the hard nosed world is what’s causing a lot of the problems. And, That’s you know, they never the 2 shall meet, but we have to make the 2 meet in order to get engagement.
Scott McCarthy [00:13:24]:
That’s awesome, actually. That was actually, kind of a little bit of a joke, but, it it set things up pretty nicely, actually, in the next bound here. Yo. You said the 2 shall meet and that leaders, you know, we do need we do need to care. We do need to Look after our people and look after their well-being. And believe me, I I I personally fundamentally believe this. But at the same time, what I heard from you, Bob, is that, you know, we need results too. And this This podcast is called the Peak Performance Leadership Podcast where we aim to strive to hit our peak performance about what I call the 3 domains of leadership, and that is leading yourself, I e, the individual leader, leading your team, I e, the individuals with that make up your team, and then finally leading your organization, I e, the institution that you you work within, work for, or whatever.
Scott McCarthy [00:14:11]:
So with that, now what are some tactical, you know, tactile things that leaders out there can do to start showing that, you know, they are a caring leader. Go beyond that’s that, you know, servant leadership, but, you know, dive deeper as as what you 2 gentlemen been talking
Bob DeKoch [00:14:28]:
about. Well, there’s a a chapter in the first part of the book, which is the beliefs part That talks about making progress and the importance of, making progress. The leaders have to move the ball. That’s what they’re paid to do, expected to do, a need to do for not only the shareholders, but frankly for the employees. They have to make progress so the the employees have Sustainable employment. In the 2nd part of the book, one of the ways we measure, performance is on financial metrics, And it says that caring leaders, there’s a practice that says caring leaders are focused on sustainable financial performance. And that means that, you know, on a profit for profit company, you’ve gotta make money. In a nonprofit, you’ve gotta break even, but you can’t lose money.
Bob DeKoch [00:15:28]:
And in organizations, you gotta meet your budgets. And sometimes that requires tough decisions to be made. But if the leader makes when you ask what are the practical things that you can do, When you have to make tough decisions in an organization for financial reasons, the the typical model is the CFO and, the HR manager and the vice president of finance or the vice president of HR get together in a room, Close the door and decide how many people are gonna get rid of, and then they announce it to the organization. The caring leader would talk to the organization about the problems that they face, about the challenges that they must, get over, would educate them on how the financial part of the organization works and get them at least to understand why the tough decisions need to be made and ask them in some ways to participate in coming up with ideas to be more cost effective. And that’s a big difference than Just downloading the decision to the people who have to bear the brunt of it. And, yes, some of it hurts people, But you have to make sure that you’re keeping your organization going for the long term. So that’s 2 things that we address squarely in the book. The the the practice as well as the belief in making progress.
Scott McCarthy [00:16:57]:
That no. I I those are awesome points. And, so this is this podcast is something I do on the side right now. It’s It’s a passion project of mine, so it’s a side hustle. And but by day, I’m a senior Canadian army officer. I was actually giving a, a, presentation, a leadership pod presentation to a group of students business students, and I talking to them, and I said and make a long story short, basically, I said to him, you know, the job of the military is to save lives. I said, but what’s your job? And they’re like, make money. I’m like, no.
Scott McCarthy [00:17:31]:
It’s to save lives. And I went through this whole rigmarole of, you know, basically, their job is to as as if in business is to make money so that they can turn around, pay their employees a salary, which they turn around and put food on the table for them and their families, therefore, saving lives. And it it really changed, you know, the viewpoint of of a number of students there. The second point is I really like what you talked about in, you know, the financial example that you you mentioned there, I e, you know, often people will sit and, you know, they’ll close the door and determine how e p employees that they’re gonna have to let go and stuff like this. I I spoke to a CEO of a of a medium sized business in 2012 ish time frame, And I was asking we were talking about the 2008 financial downturn, which I’m sure you guys can well remember. Right? The chaos and how bad it got. Right. And he his was a, a printing business, so they would do flyers and ads and all this stuff, books and magazines and all this.
Scott McCarthy [00:18:35]:
And he told me he said overnight, literally, all of his sales dried up 1 night. So he walked into work the next morning, said he brought everyone in and said, ladies and gentlemen, it it’s here. It’s hit us. We have no revenue. We have zero forecast of revenue right now. No. But no one’s going home. We will figure out a way, and we will Find a way, and we will get through this.
Scott McCarthy [00:18:58]:
And sure as heck, managed to get through it without laying off a single employee. He said he was pretty scared for a few days, but they were able to do it. So that’s a great, you know, exam real life example of to kind of fortify, what you’re saying and you tell me, like, those employees were so Trust you know, not trustworthy, but, like, they were they they were so dedicated to him and his company because he turned around and made sure that They all got through it.
Bob DeKoch [00:19:31]:
Yeah. So That’s the part of world example. That’s the idea of caring, Having people’s back and going as far as you possibly can to protect them, and they’ll turn over backwards for you and Jump upside down for you if they understand why and they understand the predicament. They wanna be part of the solution. And there’s another important practice in the book about robust communication. That’s an example you’re giving A very robust communications where here’s the situation we’re in. We’re all in this together. Give me your ideas, and we’re gonna get through it, together.
Bob DeKoch [00:20:13]:
And, otherwise, people people know when the organization’s in trouble, they can feel it. And if you don’t talk to him about it, all it does is engender mistrust.
Scott McCarthy [00:20:28]:
Absolutely. Awesome. So you you mentioned a bit there. You kinda hinted at it, and I’d like to go back to, values in what you know? So I I like value, so I run a mastermind community. And one of the first exercise I get, my new, you know, members go through is the leader core values exercise where they go and they determine their core values as a leader. I I would love to hear your con your your your take on values because you did mention on it. So what you know, how important is it to be, to understand and know your values as a caring leader. What are some definitely obvious values as a caring leader? And then, anything else you might have to add?
Bob DeKoch [00:21:12]:
Sure. So it’s it’s another chapter in the 1st part of the book of one of the beliefs said current leaders have a robust live of it robust set of values. And, you know, we study this and Through practice and through research, you can have a a long list of values. We picked 9 of them that we think are very important. I ran an organization for a gentleman for 22 years, family owned organization, big company. And his number one Comment or saying or quote always was, if you get the values right, everything else follows. Get in other words, if you get the values right, everything else is easy. And some of the values are honesty, integrity, Resiliency, transparency.
Bob DeKoch [00:22:10]:
And if you can count on people to be honest with you And transparent about what’s going on and worry about their safety. And there’s 9 of them. If you get those right, you don’t have to battle walk back anything because what you say is the truth, and there’s And and there’s no underlying message to it. And if you hold yourself to that high standard, it’s much easier than They’re not. And so it’s critical that people are honest and have integrity and Respect for one another. And if you get that right, everything else is easier. So
Phil Clampitt [00:22:55]:
And, Scott, I would just add that we are We’re having a lot of discussion in the United States and Canada and throughout the world about, you know, what does identity mean? What does it mean for my personal identity? And I think that the word that the idea of values, helps clarify a person’s identity And what it means to be a, member of a particular organization or what it means to be a member of a particular particular military unit. I’ve had that opportunity to speak at the US Army War College. And, those you know, that experience is just like, I see what those values are all like in a day in and day out basis. At the university where I work, in my department, we have 3 core values. And and I take every opportunity to say you’re different than the other departments, and you’re different than a lot of other places because we value Collaboration. So when you value collaboration, there are things you do or things you don’t do. And so that becomes a point of identity, but also a point of our orientation of where of what how to make decisions and how to, to move forward. And it gives you a lot of direction to people that sometimes, Particularly at a university where students are looking for somebody to guide them on how to behave and how to act, and so the values provide basis for
Scott McCarthy [00:24:25]:
that. Gents, I absolutely fully and wholeheartedly agree with you. However, this is the thing I often hear, and this is the thing we often hear as leaders or as coaches and consultants, actually, I would say, suggest is that how many times have you heard people where they walk in and, like, oh, yeah. There’s our mission and there’s our values and stuff like that, but The company culture is actually the opposite or doesn’t follow that along whatsoever. So, you know, what why why Why does that happen? And firstly, why do we even bother to put them up? So, you know, to get a little check check off, say, yeah. You know, we’ve we’ve put up the mission. We put up our values up on the walls so people see them, but, you know, we’re gonna go this way. Like, you know, why are we at that in in the world, and how might the leaders And, actually, gonna frame this question, the leaders who feel that they’re stuck in the middle.
Scott McCarthy [00:25:21]:
Right? Because if the CEO, you know, Feels like the values are important and that they’re up on the wall to make sure most likely the rest of the company is going to, you know, See that way, at least if they really communicate it and and make it a priority. So often you hear the middle managers are like, yes. I believe in them and stuff like this, but Then my my bosses and my boss’s boss do something which can or completely contradictory. So how might the middle manager, the one that’s stuck in the middle there, Still adhere to the values, but at the same time, try not to get, you know, basically, reprimanded from their supervisors for not you know, for kinda following them at the same time, if you know what I’m getting
Bob DeKoch [00:26:01]:
at. Well, exactly know what you’re getting at, and that’s a a huge organizational problem because It goes back to an idea that we talk about in the book that it’s easy to be deceived, but you’re the Miss, you’re the easiest one to deceive. So you might think that you’re living by the values that are on the wall if you’re the CEO or the One of the vice presidents, but that’s only your perspective. The the the perspective that really counts is do the people feel like They see that you’re living the values. That’s the test. So, are you are you self aware enough to find out whether Employees think you’re living the values at any level, whether you’re the top person or a middle level executive or a middle level manager. And then if you yourself are living values, but others in the organization aren’t, that’s that’s not an Excuse for you not to live the values yourself, but the organization has to come to grips with the fact that The environment, the culture is not coming across to the people like they’re honest and respectful and fair and And all of those things that are so important. And we need to hold ourselves to a very high standard.
Bob DeKoch [00:27:24]:
We have a Graphic in the book that talks about values could be on a on a continuous gradient scale Or a cliff. And what we mean by that is to say, let’s take honesty, for example. The two ends of the spectrum are I’m completely honest or I’m dishonest. But on a gradient, you might say, well, I’m honest most of the time, Or I’m honest half of the time or I’m sometimes honest. When you sit back and evaluate that, that makes absolutely no sense because, how can you be honest half of the time? Because the other half of the time, people are seeing you’re not honest. So the standard you have to hold yourself to Is do you represent things honestly from the start all the time or not? And do people see you that way or not? And if the answer to that is no, then you better start making changes to say, okay. The spin and everything else that happens and, You know, the stories that go around that aren’t quite the truth need to stop because people will find out immediately. It’s a very high standard, but it’s the only one that works with values.
Phil Clampitt [00:28:41]:
Scott, the other piece of it that I think is worth Noting is that when you talk about values, you have to be able to ground it and saying, here are particular behaviors that emerge from those values. And if you as a leader, it’s one thing for you as your yourself to exist, I have that, but then to point out examples in real time when when an employee or a team member is living by those values We’re not living by those values. That’s where you go beyond just full value statements, and it’s not real value statements. You get a real Deep immersion in what that what happens. So for tell me, I’d give you the example from the university When we have a collaborative when we say we wanna have collaborative relationships, well, if somebody’s not collaborating, my role as the, lead professor senior professors to make sure that that’s happening. And if I see it happening, I’m gonna say bravo. And if it’s not, then this is something we need to work through. And so it’s a coaching opportunity.
Phil Clampitt [00:29:49]:
So the statements on the wall are important. In fact, I help craft them all time, so I’m not gonna be anti statements on the wall, but the meaning of the statements and the meaning of day in and day out of life is what’s crucial for them to have any value at all.
Bob DeKoch [00:30:05]:
In the living of the
Phil Clampitt [00:30:07]:
statement every day. Yeah.
Scott McCarthy [00:30:11]:
You know, what I hear from you guys is, how we do anything is how we do everything, and that’s kinda how you have to run with your values. I I really like the, you know, true, you know, telling the truth. Right? You can’t tell the truth sometimes. You have to tell You know, to be truthful, you gotta tell the truth all the time. Right? Pretty much how it rolls. So, and I really like the feel the last bit there about, about the statements and, you know, making sure that, you actually live them and breathe them. Right? And that if they’re important enough to put up on the wall so everyone sees it. Yeah.
Scott McCarthy [00:30:47]:
You have to live it and breathe it. Now as a leader, I will personally tell you, I was doing that, so I commanded a squadron of, 200 mil members and for 2 years, and, I was living and breathing it and trying to really, you know, get a get my people to hone in on the impact that They had the importance of the mission and stuff like this. But let me tell you, it was exhausting communicating it consistently and constantly. So as leaders out there, like, to me, communication is is is one of the corner is, you know, one of the cornerstones. We have to be able to communicate. So how does a caring leader go about communicating the importance of these values and and and the importance of the people and so on and so forth, effectively.
Bob DeKoch [00:31:38]:
Well, communication, To be a little bit cute about it, communication is the jet fuel of leadership. You have to do it. You need it all the time Or the plane crashes. If you don’t have fuel, the pro plane crashes. And so it’s exhausting. You use the word exhausting To be communicating all the time. Now the important thing is you can’t communicate about everything. You gotta communicate about things that matter.
Bob DeKoch [00:32:09]:
And in the book, we talk about 2 categories of things that we call things that are what’s in it for the Organization and what’s in it for the people. We communicate on 2 channels, WIFM and w What’s in it for the Oregon? What w IFO? Most of the time, Leaders have a good, a good track record of communicating what’s in it for the organization, but they don’t translate the message into what’s in it For the employee, the example we talked about before on the financial, problems with this organization that you mentioned, That’s one where he communicated about what’s in it for the organization. We don’t have any revenue. We need to fix that, And I need your help, and your help is important. It’s what’s in it for the employee. They kept they keep their jobs, and they keep being, employed by the organization. That’s just one of many examples. And we have to communicate about both, And you gotta communicate on multiple channels, whether it’s presentations or or, 1 on 1 communication or group meetings or email, electronic, letters, All kinds of different ways.
Bob DeKoch [00:33:35]:
And you need to tell stories. You need to put put the message in stories. People remember stories better And they do bullet points on a slide. So multidimensional, multichannel, And communicating all the time about things that really matter are what’s important, and it is exhausting. You have to be up for that.
Scott McCarthy [00:34:02]:
It it’s part of the gig you signed up for. Right? You know, it’s it. But a few things I liked about what you said there, multidimensional. And I look at multidimensional as in terms that not everyone receives communication the same way. Therefore, you can’t expect to push out one one form of communication and ensure that everyone has actually received It’s our jobs as the leaders to make sure that what we’re trying to communicate actually gets received on the other end, not for the other person to receive what the leader is saying. It’s kinda how I I view points. So the whole multidimension thing is super crucial. So, yep, 1 on ones, big group forums.
Scott McCarthy [00:34:43]:
Sometimes the email works. Sometimes the chat works. Sometimes, you know, video conferencing like this works, and so forth, but you can’t just assume it’s gonna be a a one shot and and done per se. And the other thing is, you know, it It has to be consistent and and basically constant. Like, every day, every day, every week When I was, you know, commanding that squadron 200, it was the same message throughout, you know, tailored to the individuals that I was talking to because, You know, everyone had a a different piece of the larger pie, and their little piece was a little bit different. But at the same time, I was talking about the whole pie, but where they came from.
Phil Clampitt [00:35:24]:
Yeah. I think it’s really critical what you just said because, I I think there’s a bias, that we all have. It’s Like, I like the communication in x form, and I would assume that somewhat that the people who report to me like it in the same form. And sometimes that’s not true. Sometimes they want some people want it written. Sometimes people want it oral. Sometimes people want it face to face. Sometimes people want it in different formats.
Phil Clampitt [00:35:49]:
And that’s why the real challenge for executives, when I work with them, my specialty and my PhD happens to be in organizational communication. So I have My whole life has been dedicated to dealing with these kinds of issues. But the one of the things I always challenge people to do the senior level is if can you put the same message into 3 different formats? Can you do it in oral format? Can you do it, in written format, words that you use, and can you do a visualization of it? And, when Bob and I wrote the book, we kinda challenged ourselves to do that. And, can we put can we use multiple ways to signal the same type of thing because we think it’s so important? And so, that becomes a really critical skill, and it you know, in one sense, it makes the communication task exhausting. But in the other sense, if you go back to the value discussion, if you say, look. The values are what I gotta get right, Then I have to figure out multiple ways to communicate those values that will resonate with everybody. Maybe it doesn’t resonate with me personally as a leader, but it resonates with everybody else so they can in turn amplify those amplify that those messages And energize the entire organization. And that’s where some of those depressing statistics come from is that we don’t do that often enough Oh, you mentioned at the beginning of the
Bob DeKoch [00:37:20]:
broadcast. You know? And the the payoff for this exhaustive communication, extensive communications is much deeper engagement because people understand. They know the why. They trust what you’re saying because They hear it from the leader all the time, and, they get behind the idea that they’re here to participate In a big way, and you want to participate in a big way. That’s why it’s such a big item of jet fuel for for leadership.
Scott McCarthy [00:37:55]:
That’s awesome. Gentlemen, this has been a fantastic conversation, but, all good things come to an end. Right? Before we wrap up, I do got a couple last questions for you both. And the first is the question I ask all the guests here at the Peak Performance Leadership podcast. And that is according to you, Bob and Phil, and each take your turn, answering this, what makes a great leader?
Bob DeKoch [00:38:24]:
Well, that’s the it’s not one thing. It’s the 5 beliefs and 9 practices that we talk about in this book. It’s things like we’ve talked about here, the values, the progress. There There are other beliefs. It’s communication. It’s, relationships. It’s practices that are important, And they need to act in concert with one another to put a put a style around leadership It shows people that you care about them and you care about the outcomes, that they’re there to help you get.
Phil Clampitt [00:39:05]:
And I would say to kinda echo that, I think that was the question you asked is is a deep and profound one, And it’s really the one we tried to answer in the book. And I think what we came up with was the the basic idea that their Great leaders have this if you read about them, and I read all these biographies and all this stuff, and I look at the people I admire the most, Including Bob. And there’s, like, this core this core belief set that kinda orients everything. And then once they figure that out, they have a variety of ways over the course of their career of Implementing those belief structures so that it becomes infectious to the people they work with. Mhmm. And so there’s an infection level In a positive sense, I hate to use the word infection in COVID time post COVID times, but in a positive sense where it creates an infection That’s driven by a deep set of beliefs and a deep set of practices that are linked to those beliefs. And what I think is missing today Is the disconnect between those 2? That’s a long answer to a very profound difficult question.
Scott McCarthy [00:40:21]:
It’s still a fantastic answer. I I’ve gotten you know, I asked that question, oh, god knows, 200 and something times now, and, I get answers all, you know, completely different. But at the same time, to the core of them, they’re still relatively close in that you know, in the end, people just wanna care to to mind the pun. So, follow-up question of the show. How can people follow you? How can they find you? Shameless plugs. It’s all about you 2 gentlemen now.
Bob DeKoch [00:40:53]:
Sure. So, we’re both on LinkedIn, so you can reach us there. But there’s a a great website for the book. It’s called Leading With Care .net. Leading with Care .net. Talks about the book, talks about us, has some very cool videos that we’ve done, Has a number of other podcasts that we’ve done. Years will be there as soon as it’s published. We’ve had some fortunate, articles placed in print media with Forbes and Inc Magazine and Investors Business Daily.
Bob DeKoch [00:41:26]:
Those articles are there. So Look at the website leading with care .net. Also, the homepage has a place to order the book. We certainly hope your listeners will, do that. It’s available on all the major book selling
Scott McCarthy [00:41:42]:
platforms. Awesome. Thank you, gentlemen. And For the listeners always, it’s easy. Just go to lead dope boss.comforward/253, 253, and the links are all there in the show notes. Gentlemen, again, thank you for taking some time out of your busy schedules and and speaking to us
Bob DeKoch [00:42:00]:
today. Thank you, Scott. Happy to be with you.
Phil Clampitt [00:42:02]:
Thank you. Great
Scott McCarthy [00:42:05]:
questions. And that’s a wrap for this episode, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting the peak performance leadership podcast. But you know what you could do to truly support the podcast and know that’s not leaving a rating and review? It’s simply helping a friend, and that is helping a friend by sharing this episode with them if you think this would resonate with them and Help them elevate their performance level whether that’s within themselves, their teams, or their organization. So do that. Help me, help a friend, win win all around, and, hey, you look like a great friend at the same time. So Just hit that little share button on your app, and then feel free to fire this episode to anyone that you feel would benefit from it.
Scott McCarthy [00:42:56]:
Finally, there’s always more. There’s always more lessons around being the highest performing leader that you can possibly be, whether that’s for yourself, your team, or your organization. So why don’t you subscribe? Subscribe to the show via moving forward leadership .comforward/subscribe. Until next time, lead. Don’t boss, and thanks for coming out. Take care now.