Gallup recently reported that only 15% of employees in the U.S. are truly engaged in their workplace. Yet nearly 70% of employees say they would work harder if they felt more appreciated. Over 90% of employees surveyed believed their leadership “lacked communication skills to lead.” The gloomy stories behind sobering statistics reveal employees’ disappointment with current leadership approaches. Leaders can do better.

DeKoch, with over 40 years of diverse executive leadership experience, which included 20 years leading The Boldt Company, a $1 billion construction services and real estate development company, has developed novel insights into leadership thinking and practice. Clampitt, an endowed, award-winning communication and information science professor at University of Wisconsin-Green Bay, has over 40 years of experience in university teaching, ground-breaking research, and business consulting. 


During this interview Bob, Phil, and I discuss the following topics:

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The following is an AI generated transcript which should be used for reference purposes only. It has not been verified or edited to reflect what was actually said in the podcast episode. 

Gentlemen, welcome to the Peak Performance Leadership podcast. So good to have you both here today. Well, Scott were very happy to be with you today. Very excited, but very excited to be with you, too, as well. Awesome. So we have Bob. We got Phil. Gentlemen, I want to lead this show off with the quote, which was actually in the pitch you flicked over or your publicist flicked over to me. And that is that Gallup recently reported only 15% of employees in the US are choosing age in the workplace, yet nearly 70% of employees say they would work harder if they felt more appreciate it. And over 90% of employees surveyed believe their leadership, their leadership, i.e. their supervisors and such as I read it, lacked communication skills to lead. How the heck did we get here in the first place? Because these statistics are brutal. Well, they’re very brutal. And frankly, this is pre-pandemic statistics. They’re worse after that. And this Gallup poll has been going on for a number of years. And if you go back and look, things haven’t improved that much over a period of years. Even though we work on all of these various leadership models that purport to improve these very things. And 15% engagement people would work here, 70% would work harder if this felt more appreciated. That’s all low hanging fruit. And we saw that amount along with a lot of the research that we were doing and practice. So this has got to be the premise for the book. This has got to be the case for change because of the leadership models we’re working. How in the world would we end up with these kind of numbers? And you put that alongside of the
disrespect and cynicism and all that stuff going on. It’s just a
calamity. The leadership, the way the leadership that we’re doing is not engaging people. Clearly.
You know, you mentioned the cynicism and disrespect and all those negative things and the tagline for this show is Lead don’t boss. And that is exactly where my standpoint is coming from, too, because I’ve seen enough of myself in that, you know, leaders out there just kind of getting their climb in the ranks because they’re stepping on people’s backs to get their voice, taking their people and pushing them, you know, taking them long. You know, they’re using them as the stepping posts and and kind of just, you know, just leaving a path of destruction in their wake as as they go ahead and it’s just horrible to see. And so many I have so many bad lessons learned that is like I got to do something about this. So you guys wrote a book. I started a podcast. Here we are. Hopefully, you know, inspiring people out there to be better leaders today. Now, you guys are wrote a book and it’s lead leading with care. Be on servant leadership, which is quite interesting to me. So we’re that the inspiration to go beyond servant leadership. Come from in the first place? Well, that’s a great question and I love that you set this up, that our statistics are brutal at this point. And so we thought, you know, servant leadership has been out there for a long, long time. Went back we both went back and reread the original research in the book and it said all the right things. But clearly something wasn’t working. And so that was when we got the idea of, well, maybe we need to go beyond servant leadership and address some of the concerns that have emerged really since that book was written years and years ago. And the two concerns, which I think resonate a lot with what I understand your approach to leadership is all about, is that we are people who maybe have the right sentiments that are expressed in the servant leadership, and those are the right beliefs we call them, but they don’t know how to do it. And then the people that I observed and in some ways, Scott, you probably have as well, it sounds like are people who have some of the practices and they but they really don’t have the underlying beliefs or perspective to do it. So, for example, we have people who like solicit feedback, but they never really listened to it and they never really respond to it. And they they do what I call faux engagement. And so those are the two kind of twin issues that we were trying to deal with and why we think we go beyond servant leadership, because we say, Hey, you’ve got to show this great set of beliefs and you got to know how to practice them, but you also have to have the right practices. They have to if you have these practices, you have to have the underlying beliefs that’s going to support those. Otherwise you’re not a genuine person. You’re not. So you’re not allowing the real benefits to flow of. So some of the classic servant leadership ideas,
you know, I’d add to that
the word care is very intentional In this book. We’re leading with care, and that is a much deeper idea, a bigger idea than serving that goes much further than serving. And so let’s maybe take an example of that with a couple of classical jobs. If you walk into a restaurant, you have a waiter that serves you, so they greet you, they ask you if they can get you something to drink. They show you the menu, you make some choices. What would you like, sir or madam? Tell us what you want. We’re going to serve you today. Contrast that with a health care worker who’s approach is How can I help you feel better? What are the problems today that you’re facing? What are the physical things that you’re going through? And how can the things that I do with you care for that that hurt that you have? You wouldn’t think of a waiter coming to you and starting to talk about what your dietary requirements are, what your health menu ought to be. And equally, you wouldn’t want a nurse to come into your room and give you a menu of things that she’s going to serve you services, a less
substantial idea of and caring and people need to have a sense of caring and organizations need to have a sense of caring that their leaders care about the outcomes. So those things all together are how we position this book.
That sounds really interesting to me. So as I hear it, you’re essentially saying, you know, and again, this is how I hear it, but servant leadership is kind of superficial, kind of there, you know, one and done per say, you know, here, let me what do you need? Okay, I’ll take care of you. I’ll get you what you want or need. Whereas what you’re talking about leading with care is that you know, that deeper need, you know, ensuring that the people are well being and everything about it is taking care of that deeper core level.
Yeah, yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. I think it also Scott builds on itself. Investing in people that are caring models is really about investing in people. In fact, when Bob and I wrote the book the first time we got together and he proposed the word caring, I kind of know I don’t know if I can live with that word because it has all these kind of overtones of empathy, and there’s nothing wrong with that. But I saw people who had faux empathy, and then we started a deeper discussion and we realized that he was talking about kind of a deep caring where you’re invested in the long term for poor people that you’re out there, you’re trying to be developmental. They focus. I think that’s why the health care worker makes an example. We’re looking at long term lifestyle changes, long term things that that would do to make you more successful and accomplish what you want to accomplish in life. And that’s a different kind of caring then that must then just give me empathy. So it’s kind of on top of it and that’s why we call it Beyond. So we had quite a, quite a robust discussion debate about the word caring.
You didn’t want it sounds too soft and cushy, feels that it so well, it you know, people mistake it and say, well it can’t be you can’t care so much. This is a hard nosed world. Well, the flip side of that is the hard nosed world is what’s causing a lot of the problems. And that’s, you know, the average the two shall meet. But we have to make to meet in order to get engagement.
That’s awesome. Actually, I was actually kind of a little bit of a joke, but it set things up pretty nicely actually. In the next Bound here. You know, you said the two shall meet and that leaders you know we do need we do need to care. We do need to look after people and look after their well-being. And believe me, I personally fundamentally believe this. But at the same time, what I heard from you, Bob, is that, you know, we need results, too. And this this podcast is called the Peak Performance Leadership Podcast, where we aim to strive to hit our peak performance of what I call the three domains of leadership, those leading yourself, i.e. the individual leader, leading your team, i.e. the individuals that make up your team, and then finally leading your organization, i.e. the institution that you work with and work for or whatever. So with that now what are some tactical, you know, tactile things that leaders out there can do to start showing that, you know, they are caring? Leader go beyond that, that know servant leadership but you know, dive deeper as what you two gentlemen have been talking about. Well well there’s a chapter in the first part of the book which is the beliefs part that talks about making progress and the importance of making progress that leaders have to move the ball. That’s what they’re paid to do, expected to do and need to do for not only the shareholders, but frankly, for the employees. They have to make progress so the employees have sustainable employment. In the second part of the book, one of the ways we measure performance is on financial metrics, and it shows that caring leaders there’s a practice that says caring leaders are focused on sustainable financial performance. And that means that, you know, on a profit for profit company, you’ve got to make money in a nonprofit, you’ve got to break even, but you can’t lose money. And an organization is you got to meet your budgets. And sometimes that requires tough decisions to be made. But if the leader makes when you ask what are the practical things that you can do when you have to make tough decisions in an organization for financial reasons, the typical model is the CFO and then the h.R. Manager and the vice president of finance or the vice president of h.r. Get together in a room, close the door and decide how many people are going to get rid of and then they announce it to the organization.
The caring leader would talk to the organization about the problems that they face, about the challenges that they must get over would educate them on how the financial part of the organization works and get them at least to understand why the tough decisions need to be made and ask them in some ways to participate in coming up with ideas to be more cost effective. And that’s a big difference than just downloading the decision to the people who have to bear the brunt of it. And yes, some of it hurts people, but you have to make sure that your keeping the organization going for the long term. So that’s two things that we address squarely in the book, the practice of the practice as well as the belief in making progress
that, you know, those are awesome points. And so this is this podcast is something you do on the side right now. It’s it’s a passion project of mine. So it’s a side hustle. And by day I’m a senior Kenyan army officer, so I was actually giving a presentation, a leadership presentation to a group of students, business students. And I was talking to them and I said, make a long story short. Basically I said to them, you know, the job of the military is to save lives. I said, But what’s your job in there? Like make money, make notes to save lives? And I went through this whole rigmarole of, you know, basically their job is to, as in business, is to make money so that they can turn around, pay their employees a salary, which they turn around and put food on the table for them and their families, therefore saving lives. And it really changed, you know, the viewpoint of a number of students there. The second point is, I really like what you talked about in that, you know, the financial example that you mentioned there, i.e.,
you know, often people will sit and, you know, they’ll close the door and determine how many employees that they’re going to have to let go and stuff like this. I spoke to a CEO of a of a medium sized business and 2012 ish timeframe. And I was asking we were talking about the 2008 financial downturn, which I’m sure you guys will remember. Right. The chaos and how bad. Right. And he his was a printing business so they would do flyers and ads and all this stuff, books and magazines and all this and he’s told me, he said overnight, literally all the sales dried up one night. So he walked in to work the next morning. So he brought everyone is it lays gentleman it’s here it’s hit us we have no revenue we have zero forecast of revenue right now. No but no one’s going home. We will figure out a way and we will find a way and we will get through this and sure as heck managed to get through it without laying off a single employee. So it was pretty scary for a few days, but they were able to do it. So it’s a great example, real life examples to kind of fortify what you’re saying. And you told me, like those employees were so
trust, you know, not trustworthy, but like they were they were so dedicated to him and his company because he turned around and made sure that they all got through it. So that’s just a part of it. That’s the idea of caring, having people’s back and going as far as you possibly can to protect them, and they’ll turn over backwards for you and jump upside down for you. If they understand why and they understand the predicament, they want to be part of the solution. And you know, there’s another important practice in the book about robust communication. That’s an example. You’re giving a very robust communications where here’s a situation we’re in, we’re all in this together. Give me your ideas and we’re going to get through it together. And otherwise, you know, people people know when the organization is in trouble, they can feel it. And if you don’t talk to them about it, all it does is engender mistrust.
Absolutely awesome. So you mentioned a bit there. You kind of hinted at it. And I’d like to go back to values and what you know, So I like values. So I run a mastermind community and one of the first exercise I get my new members go through is the leader core values exercise where they go and they determine their core values. As a leader, I would love to hear your core, your take on values, because you did mention on it. So what you know, how important is it to be, understand and know your values as a caring leader? What are some definitely obvious values as a caring leader and then anything else you might have to add? Sure. So it’s another chapter in the first part of the book and one of the beliefs that caring leaders have a robust, little robust set of values and, you know, we studied this and through practice and through research, you can have all a long list of values. We picked nine of that we think are very important. I ran an organization for a gentleman for 22 years,
family owned organization, big company, and his number one comment or saying or quote, always was if you get the values right, everything else follows the gifts. In other words, if you get the values right, everything else is easy. And some of the values are honesty, integrity, resiliency, transparency. And if you can count on people, to be honest with you and transparent about what’s going on and worry about their safety, and there’s nine of them. If you get those right, you don’t have to walk back anything because what you say is the truth. And there’s then and there’s no underlying message to it. And if you hold yourself to that high standard, it’s much easier than
than not. And so it’s critical that people are honest and have integrity and respect for one another and forget that. Right? Everything else is easier. So that. Adam Scott I would just add that we are we having a lot of discussion in the United States and Canada throughout the world about what does identity mean, what does it mean for my personal identity? And I think that the word that the idea of values helps clarify a person’s identity and what it means to be a member of a particular organization or what it means to be a member of a particular very particular military unit. I had the opportunity to speak at the U.S. Army War College. And those you know, that experience was just like, I see what those values are all I can do on a daily basis at the university where I work in my department, we have three core values and and and I take every opportunity to say you’re different than the other departments are different than a lot of other places because we value collaboration. So when you value collaboration, there are things you do or things you don’t do. And so that becomes a point of identity, but also a point of our orientation of where, of what, how to make decisions and how to to move forward. And it gives you a lot of
direction to people that sometimes, particularly at the university, where students are looking for somebody to guide them on how to behave and how to act. And so the values provide the basis for that.
Jens Absolutely, fully and wholeheartedly agree with you. However, this is the thing often here and this is the thing we often hear as leaders or as coaches and consultants, actually I would say suggests is that how many times have you heard people where they walk in and like, Oh yeah, there’s our mission and there’s our values and stuff like that, but the company culture is actually the opposite or doesn’t follow that along. What’s so ever. So you know what? Why, why does that happen first place? Why do we even bother to put them up? So, you know, they get a little check, check off, say, yeah, you know, we’ve put up the mission, we put up our values up on the walls. People can see them. But, you know, we’re going to go this way, like, you know, why are we at that in the world? And how might the leaders and actually going to frame this question, the leaders who feel that they’re stuck in the middle. Right. Because if the CEO you know, feels like the values are important and that they’re up on the wall to make sure, most likely the rest of the company is going to, you know, see that way at least if they really communicate it and make it a priority. So often you hear the middle managers are like, yes, I believe in them and stuff like this. But then my my boss’s and my boss’s boss do something which kind of are completely contradictory. So how might the middle manager, the one that’s stuck in the middle there, still adhere to the values, but at the same time try not to get, you know, basically reprimand it from their supervisors for, you know, for kind of following them at the same time, if you know what I’m getting at. Well, exactly. Know what you’re getting at. And that’s a huge organizational problem because it goes back to an idea that we talk about in the book that
it’s easy to be deceived, but you’re the most you’re the easiest one to deceive. So you might think that you’re living by the values that are on the wall if you’re the CEO or the one of the vice presidents. But that’s only your perspective. The perspective that really counts is do the people feel like they see that you’re living the values? That’s the test. So are you are you self-aware enough to find out whether employees think you’re living the values at any level, whether you’re the top person or a level executive or a mid-level manager? And then if you yourself are living values, but others in the organization aren’t, that that’s not an excuse for you not to live the values yourself.
But the organization has to come to grips with the fact that the environment, the culture, is not coming across to the people, like they’re honest and respectful and fair, and then all of those things that are so important. And we need to hold ourselves to a very high standard. We have a graphic in the book that talks about values can be on a on a continuum as a gradient scale or a cliff. And what we mean by that is to say, let’s take honesty, for example. The two ends of the spectrum are I’m completely honest or I’m dishonest, but on a gradient you might say, Well, I’m honest most of the time, or I’m honest half of the time, or I’m sometimes honest when you sit back and evaluate it, that that makes absolutely no sense because how can you be honest half of the time? Because the other half of the time people are seeing, you’re not honest. So the standard you have to hold yourself to is do you represent things honestly from the start, all the time or not? And the people see you that way or not. And if the answer to that is no, then you better start making changes to say, okay, the stone and everything else that happens. And you know, the stories that go around that aren’t quite the truth need to stop because people will find out immediately. It’s a very high standard, but it’s the only one that works with values.
Scott The other concern that I think is worth noting is that when you talk about values, you have to be able to ground it in saying here are particular behaviors that emerge from those values. And if you’re as a leader, it’s one thing for you or your and yourself to just have that. But then to point out examples in real time when there were 20 or 30 members living by those values or not living by those values, that’s where you go beyond just full value statements. And it’s not real value statement. You get real deep immersion in what that what happened. So for me, I can give you an example from the university. When we have a collaborative, we say we want to have collaborative relationships. Well, some of these are collaborating. My role as the lead professors, scene professors, to make sure that that’s happening. And if I see it happening, I’m going to say bravo. And if it’s not, then this is something we need to work through. And so it’s a coaching opportunity. So the statements on the wall are important that I helped craft them over time. So I’m not going to be anti statements on the wall, but the meaning of the statements and the meeting a day in and day out life is what’s crucial for them to have any value work on the living of the statement discovery. Get the
you know, what I hear from you guys is how we do anything is how we do everything. And that’s kind of how you have to run with your values. I really like the you know, it’s true, you know, telling the truth. Right. And tell the truth. Sometimes you have to, you know, to be truthful, you go tell the truth all the time, right? Pretty much so. And I really like the feel the last bit there about both the statements and, you know, making sure that you actually love them and breathe them. Right. And that if they’re important enough to put up on the wall so everyone sees it. Yeah, you have to live it. Read it. Now, as a leader, I will personally tell you I was doing that, so I commanded a squadron of 200 members and the for two years and I was living and breathing it and trying to really, you know, get a get my people to hone in on the impact that they had and the importance of the mission and stuff like this. But let me tell you, it was exhausting communicating it consistently and constantly. So as leaders out there like, to me, communication is is one of the core is, you know, one of the cornerstones we have to be able to communicate. So how does a caring leader go about communicating the importance of these values and and the importance of the people and so on, so forth, effectively?
communication to be a little bit cute about it. Communication is the jet fuel of leadership. You have to do it. You need it all the time or the plane crashes. If you don’t have fuel, the plane crashes. And so it’s exhausting. You use the word exhausting to be communicating all the time. Now, the important thing is you can’t communicate about everything. You’ve got to communicate about things that matter. And in the book, we talk about two categories of things that we call things that are what’s in it for the organization and what’s in it for the people. We communicate on two channels I am and of a what’s in it for the and it would be for
most of the time
leaders have a good a good track record of communicating what’s in it for the organization. But they don’t translate the message into what’s in it for the employee. The example we talked about before on the financial problems with this organization that you mentioned, that’s one worry communicated about what’s in it for the organization. We don’t have any revenue. We need to fix that. And I need your help. And your help is important is what’s in it for the employee. They they keep their jobs and they keep being employed by the organization. That’s just one of many examples. And we have to communicate about both. And you got to communicate on multiple channels, whether it’s presentations or or one on one communication or group meetings or email, electronic letters, all kinds of different ways. And you need to tell stories. You need to put put the message in stories. People remember stories better than they do bullet points on a slide so multidimensional, multi channel and communicating all the time about things that really matter are what’s important and it is exhausting. You have to be up for that.
It’s part of the gig. You signed up for it. Yeah, you know, it’s but a few things I liked about you said there multidimensional and I look at multi dimensional as in terms that not everyone receives communication the same way. Therefore you can’t expect to push out one one form of communication and ensure that everyone has actually received it. It’s our job as the leaders to make sure that what we’re trying to communicate actually gets received on the other end, not for the other person to receive what the leader is saying. It’s kind of an outlier, our viewpoint. So the whole multi dimension thing is super crucial. So yeah, one on one’s big group forums, sometimes the email works, sometimes just chat work, sometimes you know, video conferencing like this works, so so forth. But you can’t just assume it’s going to be a one shot and done per se. And the other thing is, you know, it’s has to be consistent and basically constant, like every day, every day, every week. When I was commanding Squadron 200, it was the same message throughout, you know, tailored to the individuals that I was talking to because, you know, everyone had a different piece of the larger pie and their little piece was a little bit different. But at the same time, I was talking about the whole pie, but where they came from, yeah, I think it’s really critical what you just said, because I think there’s a bias that we all have. It’s like, I like the communication and X form, and I would assume that somewhere that the people who report to me like it in the same form. And sometimes that’s not true. Sometimes they want some people want it written, sometimes people want it oral, sometimes people want a face to face. Sometimes people want in different formats. And that’s why the real challenge for executives, when I work with them or my specialty or my page, do you happen to be an organizational communication? So I have my whole life that’s been dedicated to dealing with these kinds of issues. But one of the things I always challenge people to do at the senior level is can you put the same message in the three different formats? Can you do it in an oral format? Can you do it in written format words that you use and can you do a visualization of it? And when Bob and I wrote the book, we kind of challenged ourselves to do that. And can we put do we use multiple ways to signal the same type of thing because we think it’s so important? And so that becomes a real critical skill. And it in one sense, it makes
the communication task exhausting. But in the other sense, if you go back to the value discussion, if you say, look, the values are what I got to get right, then I have to figure out multiple ways to communicate those values that will resonate with everybody. Maybe doesn’t resonate with me personally as a leader, but it resonates with everybody else so they can in turn amplify those and amplify that those messages can energize the entire organization. And that’s where some of those depressing statistics come from, is that we don’t do that often enough. But you mentioned at the beginning of the broadcast, you know, and the payoff for this exhaustive communication and extensive communications is much deeper engagement because people understand, they know the why, they trust what you’re saying, because they hear it from the leader all the time and they get behind the idea that they’re here to participate in a big way. And you want them to participate in a big way. That’s why it’s such a big item of jet fuel for for leadership.
Now, that’s awesome. Gentlemen, this has been a fantastic conversation, but all good things come to an end right before we wrap up. I do Got a couple last questions for you both. And the first is the question I ask all of the guests here at the Big Performance Leadership podcast, and that is according to you, Bob and Phil and each take your turn. Answer this. What makes a great leader?
that’s the it’s not one thing. It’s the five beliefs and nine practices that we talk about in this book. Things like we’ve talked about here, the values, the progress. There are other beliefs. It’s communication, it’s relationships, it’s practices that are important. And they need to act in concert with one another to put a
put a style around leadership that shows people that you care about them and you care about the outcomes that they’re there to help you get. And I would say to kind of echo that, I think that was the question you asked is a deep and profound one. And it’s really the one we tried to answer in the book. And I think what we came up with was the basic idea that their great leaders have this. If you read about them and I read all these biographies and all this stuff, and I look at the people I admire the most, including Bob, and there’s like this core, this core belief set that kind of orients everything. And then once they figure that out, they have a variety of ways over the course of their career of implementing those belief structures so that it becomes infectious to the people they work for us. And so there’s an infection level in a positive sense. I hate to use the word infection in COVID times, the post-COVID times, but in a positive sense where it creates an infection that’s driven by a deep set of beliefs and a deep set of practices that are linked to those beliefs. And what I think is missing today is the disconnect between those two. That’s a long answer to a very profound, difficult question.
It’s still a fantastic answer. I’ve gotten you know, I ask that question, God knows, 200 and something times now and I get answers. All are completely different. But at the same time, to the core of them, they’re still relatively close in that, you know, in the end, people just want to care to mind the pun. So final question of the show, How can people follow you? How can they find you, see them as close? It’s all about you two gentlemen now. Sure. So we’re both on LinkedIn so you can reach us there, but there’s a great website for the book. It’s called Leading with Care Dot Net Leading with Care Dot Net. Talks about the book, talks about us, has some very cool videos that we’ve done, has a number of other podcasts that we’ve done. Years will be there as soon as it’s published. We’ve had some fortunate articles placed in print media with Forbes and Think Magazine and Investor’s Business Daily. Those articles are there. So look at the website pleading with Kurt on that. Also the com page as a place to order the book. We certainly hope your listeners will do that. It’s available on all the major bookselling platforms.
Awesome. Thank you, gentlemen. And for the listeners, always, it’s easy just going to lead the past dot com for
253253 and the links are all there in the show notes. Gentlemen, again, thank you for taking some time out of your busy schedules and speaking to us today.
Thank you, Scott. Happy to be with you. Thank you. Great questions.

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