Leadership is a difficult skill to master. Ultimately, we all want to become a leader who matters. For that if we do not matter then there is no reason for another to follow us. However, on the other side of the coin, to matter as a leader we need to inspire and motivate our followers. Therefore, we are caught in a chicken and egg situation. To matter as a leader is something which can bring meaning and joy to your leadership journey.
Dan is the founder and CEO of The Pontefract Group, a firm that improves the state of leadership and organizational culture. He is the best-selling author of four books: LEAD. CARE. WIN., OPEN TO THINK, THE PURPOSE EFFECT and FLAT ARMY. A renowned speaker, Dan has presented at four different TED events and also writes for Forbes and Harvard Business Review. Dan is an adjunct professor at the University of Victoria, Gustavson School of Business and has garnered more than 20 industry awards over his career.
Previously as Chief Envisioner and Chief Learning Officer at TELUS—a Canadian telecommunications company with revenues of over $14 billion and 50,000 global employees—he launched the Transformation Office, the TELUS MBA, and the TELUS Leadership Philosophy, all award-winning initiatives that dramatically helped to increase the company’s employee engagement to record levels of nearly 90%. Prior to TELUS he held senior roles at SAP, Business Objects and BCIT.
During this interview Dan and I discuss the following topics:
- His background and experience
- The inspiration behind Lead. Care. Win.
- The 9 lessons of how to be a leader who matters
If you are interested in learning more about Dan’s resources be sure to check out the following links:
- Check out Dan’s Website
- Buy Lead. Care. Win. on Amazon
- Connect with Dan on LinkedIn
- Follow Dan on Twitter
For the transcript of this episode scroll to the bottom of this post.
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The following is an AI generated transcript intended for reference purposes only. It has not been edited nor vetted for 100% accuracy. Use at your own discretion.
Dan welcome to the show it’s so great to have you here. Finally, hey scott, it is a joy to be here thanks for the invite happy new year to you and yours. I am happy new year, you, as I was saying before the preamble before hit record. You are the first interview of twenty twenty one, not the first episode get released home. Fortunately so, but yes, happy happy new year to you on the west coast and fellow canadian, on the show, it’s always great to have another canuck here and as we don’t, we don’t talk, talk on your donuts. We can’t we can’t keep up the cliche, a figure out exactly who’s to say we can’t have. This show run too long because the world junior championship gold medal game is, is it a couple hours and we both know canada shuts down, for it said gold medal match every year or whenever there go for it ally, but I out, let’s dive into the episode guy copier book here we care win, which was fantastic, but I enjoyed it immensely thanks for the if signed copy on top of that up, but before we dive into it and it’s principles, that’s good, no dan and and dance background. So why don’t you start us there and we dive into your your leadership principles and force feed? It really committed a book? Well, scott. I guess, first and foremost, I’m dad and hubby to three goats, as I affectionately call them clerical and kate, who are teenagers base of victoria, british columbia, canada and hubby to denise, whom I met at mcgill university in montreal quebec. We were both in the bachelors of arts bachelors of education program and hit it off, and that’s all she wrote twenty five years of marriage last year. Incredibly speaking of mcgill, the the ba ba ed, I thought I wanted to be a doctor, go to mcgill with relatively good grades and and got there and had a conversation with the guidance counselor. I guess single figures I don’t think I’m well suited for you know pre med. I don’t think I like the sight of blood as it turns out, so perhaps you have something else which lent itself to me. Switching into the education program. I became a high school teacher for two years, realize that, although I do love kids, probably better suited to something else, ended up with a five six year career in higher education, helping adults become so are better versions of themselves thought I should be in the real world for a while, not in the academic world, not that it’s not real. It’s just. You know how does the real world worked, a profit loss and so forth so ended up. I would eventually came as a p, which was a big still is a big large e r, p and other kind of high tech company, as it’s chief learning officer, switched over to a canadian company known as tell us the telecommunication firm, where I was it’s chief learning officer for five years and then I started up my own consulting shop inside of tell us to help customers with culture change and engagement and leadership did that for five years and for the last couple years I went I my oh and I’ve been helping, whoever knocks on my door for all thing is leadership, culture, engagement, etc. Thanks for the questions got awesome you’re the author of not one, but four bucks led care. When is just the latest yasuo open to think the purpose of fact and flat army, which, no doubt I’m sure they all in your country interlinked, but I’m always curious about the story behind block x in what the motivation and inspiration from authors was too. I the so for a week. Kerwin and tickler know what was that inspiration was the motivation and story behind there because it feels like there was an interesting one. Well, first of all books. Allow me to continue to be married because I stay out of denise his hair, so that’s a plus in the marriage department, but specific to the question about lead care win. I guess as follows: the first three books that you mention or like I’d like to think of them as legs of us of a three legged stool. So what of the leg is about culture and culture change for an organization. Another is purpose. What’s your purpose? What’s our purpose as an organization that led itself to thinking and the lack of it in many of our worlds and organizations- and I thought the store was really wobbly still at that point and it needed a seat to connect the three legs and hands with with, I suppose, my twenty five years of leading teams leading myself leading organizational culture change and observing so many good and bad practices of leadership. I thought well, let’s, let’s unite the the legs with a leadership book that was different. If you will, from the other three books, because the first three books are really long hard cover, you know, like eighty five thousand word books, this one is a thirty five thousand punchy paperback. You know here are the nine lessons that I’ve learned over time that I’ve observed as well. That I think, could help people become essentially a more caring, empathic nurturing type of leader that this world yearns for. Quite frankly, awesome love it- and I totally agree with you, like gob the world deftly earned neurons for leaders who care about their people, leaders who put their people first to the point where they’re able to take care of them, you empower them, get them motivated. Inspired them. Have that vision, all these things and what rule ld, unfortunately, is seeing often are people who I like to refer to her ass bosses. People who don’t think that way are rather do, as I say, not as I do you’ll do whatever I tell you at a fear of losing your job vice, because vice you actually buying into the mission division and all those things doing it, because you actually care what organization and means the leader. So it was actually great to read indefinitely. We need more of that in the world today. So let’s dive into these lessons shall because they’re they’re quite interesting and actually relate to all of them, quite quite well with my own content out there. So, let’s just dive into them and let’s hit on a first couple there being relatable and playing for meeting fitness. So let’s, let’s dive in them in and let the audience know your. What does that mean, and how can we apply narrow day dave leadership, experiences yeah, I mean at the end of the day, the nine lessons that were found in the book needed to have an arc, but also need to be poignant. An indifferent leadership is such a a nuanced word, but it’s also an act. So what I wanted to do is start the book off by really in almost hitting square in the eye of the reader and and what I really think of as the learner as you’re reading this book about about your relate ability to yourself and to others like what makes human beings human are things we forget, as leaders of softened leaders of others, for example, we make mistakes. We also should say sorry about those mistakes. We seem to have a dire need for more empathy in our leadership styles again, leading ourselves first and foremost, but also then you know peering over the edge and wondering how people are feeling what they’re thinking appreciating a different point of view. So I find again this day and age. It is we record this in the midst of a pandemic. That notion of empathy of relate ability of seeing past the obvious looking out for someone, you know bringing your humanity to work if you will being a human being. Ultimately, this is kind of where we all need to start stop faking. It stop pretending to be someone else. You know this is not a popularity contest. You don’t need to. You know fake your way with instagram posts, and you know the look at me kind of culture that seems to dominate it. Just be you be who you wanna be, not what you think you have to be. So that’s the relate ability quotient that I refer to in less lesson one, and then I wanted a segway paid directly after that into that sense of meaning like. Why are we here as a leader as a leader of self? Have you answer that question? You have any idea what it means to come into a room, and you know why you’re in that room, do you know why you’re there to lead people to know why the organization exists? You know why you exist the organization, and so these questions of meaning of purpose. Ultimately, of asking yourself, you know the fundamental question scott. How do I want to be known when I leave a room? What are people gonna say about me and if it’s that you’re a jerk and a bully- and you don’t care- well, not the best of answers, but if it’s ultimately an answer whereby the user, the group, the people are saying gosh, does she care about me did? Did he ever look out for me did? Did they ever have that ability to sort of tap into something bigger than themselves? You know in the the hockey metaphor I use. Sometimes god in this kind of lesson is you know, are you playing for the name on the back of your jersey or the crest on the front, and I think that’s the playing for meaning quotient question we need to ask ourselves: is: are you just in it for yourself? I you the name on the back or are you more into the crest and looking out for what is the common goal and purpose? Thus, the meeting of our team or organization love it especially yeah, especially the last part they’re right, the yeti. Gotta have the organization as a holes interest to hurt vice yourself, because any day people see that and in the seats through you, in whom we know that today we know that, and it’s so apparent when you look at companies in like much turnover rate like how. How long can you hold onto an employee and are you wrong you’re some companies out there in some jobs out there, which urges he’ll entry level jobs? It has historic, really high turnover rate, but maybe but the others have there don’t, and you see those high turnovers and you wonder why well it’s why, because that boss is care about the name on the back of the jersey, as you said, not the crest on the front and you gonna tear down everyone else in front of them to push their name forward and there’s a great deal will keep the hockey up hockey talk gone because I’m a huge that diehard hockey fan so I’ll, enjoy and there’s a game where brett hall was playing and he was put out put out there to kill penalties. He’s like I don’t kill penalties like no you’re going out. Next, if like no, I don’t kill penalties, not you’re, going out next shift. They sent about, he literally skate over the pockets of skated by him in one of the other team picked up. The flu picked up the puck, my damaged cortical, so brett worry I’ll world. Where was he playing for? Was he playing for the crest or was he playing for the name on the back? Sounds very brett hollywood? Doesn’t it yeah ads is just a it’s a it’s a great yet horrible example. On at the anniversary, came off the ice and said, look guys go see, see I don’t kill penalties like wealth yeah. You go put your ego aside and that’s what is leaders we need to do? We need to put of the egos aside and look at the whole organism russian. So one of my favorite hockey ego stories, incidentally, is quite literally. I think I do play for the name, other bacteria jersey across the front example- and that was that I mentioned earlier- that I went to mcgill for my undergrad and met denise there. Well, I’m old, which means that I was actually in the forum when there was a montreal forum in montreal. Well, the habs beat the kings of the ninety ninety three stanley cup final. I was there and what of in the arena when, when gary bettman s first year as commissioner hands the cup over to guy carbonneau, the captain at the time who then proceeds to hand the cup over as they do traditionally, with ceremony of skating around the rink with the cup after when he hands it to none other than the goal tender, patrick the? What now? What? Ah? What does he do? He skates over to the glass at the blue line and on the other side of a glass was a camera man who popped up on the other side, and you could see patrick la serve kind of gesturing into the camera, and they escaped back, and he does kind of is finally does twirl around the rink with the cup that night and for the preceding week on any channel you’d pick up at the day when tv was still tv, there was patrick, was speaking into the camera, and he says as follows: I’m patrick, why I just won the stanley cup and I’m going to disneyland, and it was a disney commercial, so the dude gets paid by disney. This wasn’t for fun. It wasn’t for volunteer, wasn’t being donated to charity. He got paid to be recorded by disney to be in a commercial, the second after he had won the stanley cup with his teammates and said I just won the stanley cup I’m going to disneyland, so I might have brett hold one up do with the patrick weil story of how people tend to play for the name on the back of their jersey, and that exemplary is what happens. Often in organizations leaders can only looking out for themselves and not for the greater good of the team. I am a diehard by japanese fan and I remember that game. I remember watching it and I won’t tell you how old I was because isn’t a crest pretty hung, but I remember that neil I was twenty. I was twenty one, and I was, I didn’t know is going on. I, when I was in the ten dollar, stand standing room only seats where you got the lafleur hot dogs for four dollars are amazing, but I do remember that action and later on that week in oh, you saw the commercials and it stuck with me that I’m not verified, and yes indeed, he did do that. Awesome, ah love hockey talk, but we got more important things that, while think young, but we have more serious things that dogma such as such as leadership and when an interesting things you you you talk live in in in your book, is staying present and how important is dad today and how leaders need machine mintz of the pandemic of staying present. No challenge at staying present actually forces us to be so. How can we stay present and why your first off was important to be present as a leader, an organization, but how can we be present for people move there so on the on the former and then we’ll go back to the latter. The the importance of staying present really is about whether or not you’re there for your team and- and it matters greatly that your present with your team at present, doesn’t necessarily mean face to face. That means you’ve got their back. That means you attend to an email, their needs that that when you do have a one on one that you’re not zone, I doubt or multi tasking and answering texts and yams. It means that you’re there and so to stay present. What I recommend in order to to win the tuition value of being present with your team members is, is first, while to kind of do some audits, like audit your calendar, what how have you set up your day is like pandemic or not what I find when I do executive coaching or when I’m working with teams, particularly senior leaders. The first thing I do is I asked to look at their calendar the end, and it’s not a I’m. Looking to out you because you’ve got a bunch of dates with people who share of dates. Went that’s not the point. The point is: what are you doing in terms of what your calendar looks like how long your mayonnaise? How many meters you have? Are they all busy meetings about prep meetings? Is there any white space you know is ready calendar space? That’s what I call kind of meantime or think time. How do you start your day? What are your lunches like? What is it? What how do you end the day? Where’s your thinking time was your where’s your time in order to give buffer in between meetings like. Why is every meeting defaulted to sixty minutes? I have no idea so arbitrary, licked, okay church. Maybe it starts on the hour once end of the hour. Why is it forty minutes or forty five? Why don’t you give yourself back fifteen to twenty minutes? So therefore, you can be present for some of the other bits that pop up, like you, have to answer emails and voicemails, and you know you have to attend two crises, and things are happened with your team. We don’t know how to behave with our time and so we’re very unpleasant if you will, with with how, in the were trying to be as a leader for our team members and that’s frightening and it it was problematic prior to the pandemic. It’s a it’s a full blown apocalyptic issue now and why I say that scott is because problematic. Prior the pandemic meant that you know you could at least see people, and you could have the bumps and you you could have the touch points, whether the parking lot, the elevator, the hallways. You know those times when you could have some of that leader to team bumping going on like very affectionate bumping, I’ll call it platonic sense, obviously, but because of the pandemic, now, there’s no bumping going on so people. Don’t people are still continuing us leaders to go back to back with their meetings. They’re. Actually, cramming more am because you don’t have commuting time, they’re, cramming more into those meetings and because no one’s watching a they have access to either a second laptop or their mobile device. Now, whether suppose we paying attention in a zoo meeting or otherwise, they’re not- and why do I know this- is because again like thankfully people are hiring me or ask me for input inside of these organizations and I’m getting direct feedback from the leaders or the team members on what’s actually occurring holy smokes. Oh my to my frightened, because here we are only at less than three and so far. I’ve said you know we’re not being human lesson, one be relatable and not thus were not an empathic. We kind of keep playing for the names on the back of our jerseys with lesson two in terms of play for meeting and the three were only lesson three scott and we’re we’re kind of not present, and it’s getting out of control with the with the pandemic and our isolationism. So I sound apocalyptic now. Let’s talk one of the happier calmer, it’s it’s sad but true and in, but these are the things that we need to do and I love the meeting bam new tactic, I’ll call it. Why are meeting sixty minutes drives me nuts. Like every time I get a meeting invite at work in it’s. I hope sixty minutes like why this thing it’s gonna, take fifteen minutes and the problem is there’s always that one person that shows up to the meeting who loves to hear themselves talk and when you put a container, I eat a time limit on a meme us human beings have a tendency to fill containers and fill spaces. So when you a lotta space of six demands, people will fill it and it’s not necessarily productive, and this is where, as a leader you need to, we do analysis. Look at it and and put some thought like does- is beating need to be sixty minutes now it doesn’t so, but I am a senior kane army officer, that’s what it does. Why do daytime in. I was commanding a squadron of two hundred and every wednesday we would have our groups or wherever a meeting where I would sit down with the senior league leadership, the squadron we go through various updates for me and I would have updates for them on various things. It’s toughness. I remember walking in a few times, and and before I would sit down ago, are were done. It’s eta were done, eleven forty, five or less ready to go, because I had the pulse of what was going on, and I knew that there would be not a whole lot to discuss and I didn’t need us to be there till lunchtime or or ill going in and it just forced people to actually talk about what was important at that time a moment and don’t get me wrong. I wouldn’t cut people off of dead, important things and if we need overtime when you to go over time, but it didn’t allow people to fill the container with garbage and allowed need flexibility to as a leader to have that time to reflect, to take care of myself to do whatever, whatever else to have side meetings with others, because we worked there till noon and everyone was running off the lunch efforts. So remedy is bodegas scott there’s nothing wrong with brevity nope, nothing wrong with it whatsoever. So he’ll have you, we talked about it and it seems he were talking like. Oh, my god, the route, the world’s crashing or not human were not present. Yeah we’re we’re only take care of ourselves. Leaders like oh, my god, the rules following the sky’s falling on chicken little story coming up. Yeah save me harris of water, the good things that are coming out word wow bird. Do we go next and how do we be better than these pitfalls that were lucky yeah? Well, I mean I am an optimist, always half full glass type of guy and what I do see in a consequential as result of the pandemic is that people are really having to take stock and look in the mirror of who they are and who they wanna be, and whether that is you know. I think the headlines are interesting. I think the trend lines are more important here. So, if you’re look at the headlines in all, people are getting out of the city and they’re moving to rural towns or they’re moving out to the country right there they’re slow, dancing, they’re, slow, cooking, they’re, slow eating. There’s a lotta headlines. You see about the slow factor where it’s I I haven’t had this chance before two, maybe slow things down to maybe do things that I thought I was doing well, but I wasn’t in hindsight because the pandemic showed me that I needed to slow down, so I’m offended pandemics, awful people are dying in a I mean c’mon, let’s not kid ourselves, however, for those that are using it as a introspective cauldron of quiz inquisitiveness that it should be. I salute you, because you are actually taking a look at that assessment of self and saying. Well, what do I wanna be when I grow up? So that’s cool now from an organizational perspective. You can, you can argue the same thing and again organization is just a word. It’s made up of people who are making decisions on how these organizations operate so you’re, seeing as a result of brianna and george floyd right in oh really important investigation, science and actions around ati, equity, diverse and inclusive. Eighty, and that’s fantastic suit. You you know, as result of in the middle, a pandemic of racial unrest, not just in america, but the world. Look at what yours you’re, seeing some positive movements in that regard, fantastic you’re, seeing organizations have to look at themselves and say: well, you know, maybe are ridiculous notion of we’re never going to allow people to work from home was actually balderdash and- and now we are now thinking about how we might organize the organization such that either we could of people living in barrie ontario all the time and not have to come in a toronto or you know, move were albany and not have to come into manhattan. Whatever the case may be, organisers are finally wake up as a ah. If you don’t have to be quote in the office all the time. These are all progressive, awesome things that have happened as a result of the horrors of twenty twenty and and what’s what’s also going into twenty twenty one so that I’m actually um weirdly. I suppose got like happy about that. Despite the death and the horrors of what is you know, a tragedy tragedy with with with the civil and racial unrest as well as the pandemic unrest, is that it is causing us to actually ask the right questions about both our humanity and how we wanna operate and treat others in the places of where we need to work as we all still need. As far as I understand, okay check to pay for groceries, the eid holiday and our mortgage or rent goddess that’s a great line ago with for sure yeah the pandemic has been atrocious and horrible, and yes, so many lives have been lost them. We’ve been pretty- I guess lucky here in canada, high here in kingston ontario today, right now, there’s a grand total of fifty two cases and of the population area like two hundred thousand, which is next to nothing really right, but at the same time in adversity, there’s always the chance for opportunities. Looking for those opportunities in us, it’s leaders, the job is to look for, find and guide people towards those opportunities in one of those things of film, getting your humanity back and in closing those racial gaps in having those hard conversations, but I just having the hard conversations, but getting the hard results that are needed to get us through and pass. These points is, is definitely on point in enabling organ arc are people to have better quality of life example of people living in burying not going to try and understated best one, because they hurry do that, but maybe even further up at now. Further, because actually we’re here in kingston are housing. Market is booming because of that exact reason, trump leaving toronto coming all the way out here to kingston. I read that as well. You know, I think kingston north bay and colbert are like the hot spots across across ontario. Now there are corners, or in october, karla yeah like wow, it’s amazing nap. So I put the moral of the story. Is it’s it’s our job as leaders to find financially and we can dwell on the doom and gloom parts ass? Is you talk to it and we can focus on those opportunities and we go focus on and looking at finding them in, and I v member one. I believe a lesson for you talk about remaining curious and I think it really flows really well in point if, if anything way out year and we’re all living in the middle of a pandemic somewhat, obviously, if you’re not asking yourself well what? What can I learn from this, then? Then? How can you call yourself a true leader of self, let alone leading other people? You know the pandemic has has caused. I hope us to look in the mirror again and say: well is what I was doing good enough, and might I do it differently going forward? That requires you to remain curious. That requires you to be a lifelong learner know this is in in latin. If you will an auto didactic, someone who can self teach themselves to do and learn and be different, develop their skill, their progression that, whatever the case may be at others being on apathy, is no way in which to live a life. So because again the isolationism of the pandemic is is forcing us to be retrospective and into rocket of, I think weak, weak weak. We owe it to ourselves to push that envelope of curiosity and say well. What could I do differently, whether it’s around the house or whether it’s at work or whether it’s a life skill that the all of it? Frankly, you know what are the first weekends when the pandemic hit denise, and I look at each other and said benjamin can be bit cute, but we said well, I guess it’s good a time as any to teach the kids the goats, as we call them, were twelve fourteen and sixteen at the time blackjack and you’re like. Why would you teach your kids blackjack? Well, because I didn’t learn to play blackjack until I was like twenty eight, and that was the first time I went to vegas. So we now have usually once every three weeks on frightens like a blackjack tournament at our house, with just the five of us, obviously and for fake money, but when we rotate dealers like who has been the dealer for the four of us that are playing now again, you can think of that. Is the dumbest idea ever or you can. I think it is us kind of teaching the kids about a life skill that they might ultimately need some time in life. I learn to play ukulele just because I never I I play piano by ear, but I’ve never played any stringed instrument in my life. So, as I hate kate, one of our kids are sick. I had kind of warrior ukulele and then can you teach me you know seven or eight cores and nuclear suck shirt at certain. I feel like I’m hawaiian, because I am playing ukulele with the kids. So again it doesn’t have to be blackjack or ukulele. You can look at yourself and say at any point during a live pennebaker. Not what can I do to further my competence so that I might open up a door of opportunity that I wasn’t privy to before and that just might get you so jacked up to do something different that you never thought of before, either and and again, whether it’s a network, a contact or an idea gosh. I really wish people were were more curious in their lives. Now I love it and at ease example. So often I went through the royal military college of canada program five year program and I was like just want to get through this wanna get a done get my degree and that and then I’m done, that’s it. I’m done with school done. With this learning crap I just wanna go and do my job being an officer and a container me eccentric, etc. Yeah first, twenty twenty one sky could go back to two thousand and one scott. Twenty years ago I was strangled a crap out of twenty two thousand one scott know homer simpson on part style, because because of those reasons as readers, we need to be constantly learning. I often say the moment: we stop. Learning is the moment we come useless to our organization, because the world is constantly changing a year ago. We would not be having this type of conversation. How different is the world now in comparison to win year ago? It’s it’s it’s it’s my boys know if you think about it, but it the other side of that coin. You could say: well, it’s not really that different at all. We just change your methods and all this stuff, but same way, there’s been a lot pivots done a lot changes. A lot of leaders have completely blossomed and shown their potential shown how they can execute and a lotta leaders have failed out there and companies have failed to recognize the changes and adapt to the changes that were required to survive, and that’s due to lifelong learning. Am I firmly believe, because you need to be constantly aware of what’s out there, what technologies are were like the many people who just learned good zoom ten months ago, blows me away. I’ve been just using the zoom zoom since I started interviewing people on this podcast four years ago, nice mike. How are you not aware of that platform? How unaware that your video conferencing platform exists and is relatively cheap? I think I’ll, I must admit eric who is the founder six years ago, and when I was intrigued about was two things. First of all, he had a wonderful kind of loss. Leader program didn’t say, because what at to get people gone on to zoom, he limited it to forty minutes, but it was free, so lots of people were and the- and I asked him I said so- the forty minute thing he’s like well, I knew that people have sixty minute meetings, and so, if I limited to forty than has a greater chance of them, they want extend the ratings, like that’s brilliant, back to our point about sixty minute meetings zero couple minutes ago, but secondly, um when he he left cisco, because web axe was a bit of a disaster in the culture was horrible to start zoom, but he he came up without a single word value. You know how companies have their corporate values there’s. Usually it’s six of them seven and they’re all the same pretty much. He has one word and it’s just the word care and he got odds at argue about how you’ll, basically it it it. He his parents taught him to care the chinese chinese than emigrated to america to america. Sorry, and he just said, look I needed to care about where the country is moving to the people I left end and so on and so forth. I just love the fact that his one value is care anyway. I thought it was a nice tangential point there when you brought zoom has like yeah hookah bar people were using zoo, like to your credit for years ago. To to start your podcast is fantastic guides. It’s awesome and care. That’s amp at at a great value just to have, if you, if you boil down to caring caring, bigger your people, carry organization kermit your customer from a business standpoint, camera yourself, you’re, going to win in the end, which is how I look at that led care when producing eggs, wish they segway. Now you have to nine lessons in an one. I won’t. We won’t go through them all, because we do guy leave something for the audience out there listening to go and grab the book reason for the grabbed the book, but I do wanna hit one more and that’s lesson a commit to balance. Am I deftly want to challenge you on this and like well? How do we balance is near the beginning of the show you’re talking about you’re like go, get the I get the phone they’re, the laptops, their tablets up there everything’s connected it’s like you’re, constantly constantly being bombarded with either side messages, email, notifications, text, messages, ticket or app messages. The end is leaders like if you care about your people you’re on twenty four seven, each. If you really care like, I was commanding a squadron of two hundred folks. I would get phone calls after in the evenings in after hours be. If something went on, I need to be aware of someone had a family member that tragically passed away and we need them. You let them go for the two weeks to go. Take care of affairs and stuff like this, unfortunately, something I wound up in jail. Yeah I mean here when my people I’d go, get them out if we had all these everything, air and everything else in between. So how do we balance between leaving you reading her organizations taking care of ourselves having family, your father, three goats, which is amazing enough to come up with my own term for my two boys? But how do you bounce all this stuff? Because it’s hard, it is hard and elegant? I’m not not naive. Nor do I live in a do. I wear glass slippers. No, I do understand that it’s hard I’ve led teams of a hundred and fifty health organizations, fifty thousand strong and I am know or where it can go awry quite quickly and here’s a few of them that I watched some of your listeners to consider at least leaders do have to say. No when you say yes all the time and you have not created the boundaries and you might like those, you know the lines in the sand progression or not. You actually are doing a disservice to your team and your own leadership style. So, first and foremost, a cat say yes to everything, because that actually is detrimental to your leadership. Second, I want you to consider at least what I call our team norms so to to establish team norms. The leader gets the team, typically the direct reports, but it doesn’t mean you can’t open it up if you’re. If you have subs, then skip level a real team members, it’s fine, it’s totally cool tones. I I set up, but you’re basically have an open dialogue conversation about well, what are the end again you’ll like this. I hope rules of engagement. So what what are? What are we doing as a team to operate? How do we push through? How do we proceed? How do we communicate? How do we collaborate? How do we share? What is the right time in which to engage the leader, though you’re the leader to the team? Is it after six? Is it after eight? Does it before six in the morning response time? What to what it would do you have a a red flag quadrant, if you will that says: oh my god. Missile ahead must take duck and cover at like what are. What are those rules of engage? The team are going to create that are open, cope, aesthetically, agree to, and that adhered to, and that’s the balance I’m kind of referring to when I team and a leader commit to balance they’re, not you know a pendulum swinging all the way over to the yes side and pendulum swinging. All we overdid the bully. You know go, do this very hierarchical command and control. Just do this or else suffer consequences in or you’re right side. If you will it’s this balance in the middle of knowing that life is hard, but it can be easy that work is hard, but we can make it easier that when we do work as one unit, one team when we do identify the chasms on the cracks in an hour, okay to out them to say this is a problem paid coach, leader teams etc. What might we do to fill the crevice or what, when we do to fix it, where’s the crazy glue? If we open our authentic in that balance, then we know that we’re all in it together again back to the crest on the front as a metaphor, and we can actually balance out our time, our effort, etc. I don’t disagree at tosca about you know. A leader’s job is twenty four seven, because there are crises that do pop up at two in the morning as they do at two in the afternoon, but that doesn’t mean per say that that the leader is the only person with the answers either, and so that kind of balance. Well, how do we empower and allow our team to indeed make decisions to feel that they are empowered and able and capable of making decisions, as opposed to it, being the bottleneck to the singular leader to make all decisions that is incumbent upon a leader to create those norms such that they are a it’s team, working together with the right mission operations and strategy? Thus moving forward quote you know as one love so much about their? Ah, the boundaries, I think, is definitely required and definitely something that’s needed. We we we have those in there I mean we turn nicknamed young three and wake up call criteria right now. You have, of course, to have an official name by won’t bother going on road, but all the stories that helm. If these things happen, you wake me up if tasting. If they’re, not these things, someone else can handle it, and it goes back you while you’re in that goes down to what you’re talking earlier at the end there as dell hill, practically delegating in empowering people to make decisions when you’re not there, and whenever I was not, there is a squatter commander. My second can had full authority to make decisions on my behalf that he was a loud to something things in lab, just because of policy and all thy just dead air outside my control. But what was in my control? He had all the ability and my full support of him making those calls in. If I come back and new call wasn’t exactly who I know would have made, it wasn’t a big deal like hadden burrito or anything he made the best decision that he had at that time, but the experience and knowledge and all these things that he had at that moment and I use them- is learning lessons or just plain simple, like okay, when I would have done that, but whatever it’s icon changed price of fish, oh elsa, for you who cares anyway, but so many people there are just so scared of letting go of those reins, and I often talk with the power of delegation and requirement to delegate, and these are just some of the great benefits that come with it. While it’s clear to me, scott, is that you also, I have a very innate an impact, possibly built built up, but definitely it sounds like an innate gift of trust and so to trust others. The I was, I’m sure you would agree the truscott earned, but you actually can delegate more as trust continues to build and if, if trust is so unique, there’s a reciprocity with trusts require. So your in innate gift of trusting your team members to do what’s right, you know policy otherwise, but there’s the rest. Props him target is that clearly your team members trusted you in order to make those decisions in the field or in the crisis whatever they didn’t, they didn’t feel so they had to come to you because they knew that you had their back and thus they trusted you for them to do what’s right. Man, no definitely trust is, is important to me and I have the numb yeah. I trust merely basically my yacht your here. I’m certain that you’re here to do the best job. You can possible very few people believe at they’re actually plan on doing a bad job. I live. I lie. I totally love that line because I’ve used it before and that is. Does anyone really wake up and say I’m gonna go, do a bad job. I worked at a like. That’s just doesn’t make sense. Does it? Ah now dan, we could probably talk all night long, but we do have a hockey game, that’s coming up soon and so forth. So gonna live this down method, but before we do one down, I got a couple. Ask questions for you, the first being a question asked all the guys here, moon for leadership and has, according you die in front of frac. What makes a great leader well, I mean other than employing, I suppose the nine lessons in the book, which sounds totally selfish and righteous. I also do believe that when you bring your self like who you are to work, whether you’re a leader of sulfur leader of others, if you’re you you’re you’re one step ahead of the game, I try not to be someone you’re, not ah be authentic. I guess is the best way to describe the scott and and go from there awesome love it together in deathly, gotta bring yourself to the game. I totally agree with you and finally, how can you find you can follow you were? Can you buy the book all that stuff? It’s all the you out. Ah, that’s kind, I’m not a very good sales person. That’s for sure, but I guess the easiest way if you’re interested in the book itself is the books. Micro site will get you everywhere else to find me and that’s led care, win dot com spent a lot of time on on linkedin and twitter, less so facebook and instagram, but love getting into it with people. In the in the comments on the dialogue on linkedin and twitter, that’s a lot of fun awesome, as always for you the listener. It’s easy to go, do moving for leadership, dotcom four slots, one sixty one six era! Ah, damn thanks again for coming out taking time in your busy schedule and and talking to me, but most importantly, the audience at their got. The honor’s mine could draw your dog has renewed the great citizens like yours. Ah that are pushing the leadership envelope. Well done. Thank you.