How to Create Meaningful Partnerships | Seth Silver | Episode 197

Sats over welcome to the podcast so good to have you here think it’s got great debater, so er doc matured new book, oh other coauthor, book yeah, I was gonna, give you all the credit, but now you’re you’re you’re you’re, you you’re, very humble your humble leader. So that’s it.

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That’s a good sign already meaningful partnership at work. So, let’s, let’s dive straight in annual. Why is even meaningful partnership important in the first place for the leaders at there listening?

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So we define meaningful partnership but maybe start with a definition as as an elevated state of connection cohesion, coordination and collaboration. So the forces connection, cohesion coordination collaboration and we we had a lot of conversations gemini, the

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oh author night about the word meaningful and at the time we were writing the book supreme court justice, ruth bader ginsburg had just passed away and the obituaries were coming in and that the tv specials and it was said that she lead a meaningful life and what they meant by that and obviously around women’s rights,

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was that her life stood for something it went above and beyond it had significance had had impact, it had legacy, and we thought about that- and we said you know this is this is really what we hope work partnerships can be. I mean everyone, it’d actually be. You know you read the book, I read the first part of it. Everyone has work relationships right, but some of those standouts

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some of those are significant. Some of those make a difference in your career and to your sense of you know who you are at work and what you do and how you feel about yourself

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and the ones that stand out and are extraordinary. Ah, we we view them is meaningful because they have that legacy and impact and significance. So we start with this is the goal. Meaningful partnership is the goal. Ah, we have an under pinning model. We call it or tap e r t ap, a

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re gonna go there in your questions, but I’ll I’ll, just jump ahead a little bit and say that that’s our model, which stands for empathy, respect trust alignment and partnership, and we feel very strongly. These are sequential. I think they are mutually reinforcing and synergistic that they’re, also sequential that, with higher mutual empathy, comes higher mutual respect them. The higher mutual respect, come

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nhs, greater trust and with greater trust, overtime, time gap, empathy, respect and trust. You get to alignment which leads to a state of partnership which that is elevated to meaningful partnership, and then we have a process that creates those conditions and that we call a workplace covenant and perhaps

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oregon, ask you know more more questions about that, but that’s that process of of talking about what would it take to support you like if you and I have a meaningful partnership and we are working collaboratively together and we have interdependence and we’re doing something over a longer period of time. So we have an important work relationship and to make it a meal

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meaningful partnership. We gotta start with that conversation and the conversation is. What do I need to do to help? You feel supported and be successful, and you in turn have to talk about what you’re gonna do to help me feel supported and be successful so with a manager and team. This is really in some ways a unique conversation that doesn’t happen much.

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You know, I think a lot of times, managers assume the role as manager and they take over the team, and some of them may do some team building. Some of them may ask the question perfunctorily, you know what do you need me to do for you or what you expect from me, but mostly it’s the manager telling the team what they need to do to make things in a superb. It’s kind of a one way street

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and what we’ve noticed in our consulting and I’ve been doing this for in twenty plus years. Is that a lot of teams and individuals get frustrated at work. They get frustrated with their boss is and don’t feel supported, but I’m getting pre they’re not getting the opportunity to use their skills. They feel like they’re, spinning their wheels

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in the book. We call it the dreaded forward. D’s, you heard the foresees before we think there’s a lot of ailments in the in the workplace that are a result of the four d’s in those days are dissatisfaction,

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disengagement just spare and departure, and they were certainly prominent before covert with the alienation and anxiety and isolation of covert. I think those things intensified and and now with the economy, kind of trying to figure out where it’s gonna land and those those things are even more the case. People are feeling dissatisfied, we have employees or

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dissatisfied, they have managers have managers who are dissatisfied, who feel abandoned by their teams, who feel that their teams don’t support them, and- and you know that the employees walked out the door at five o’clock or something in the managers are there for the next four hours continuing to do the things they need to do to make the next day work. So this two way street of frustration is actually pretty common,

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and so we wrote this book with the idea of helping helping a manager and a team realize that they are in the same boat. Together there there were rolling. You know, I’ve, maybe read the metaphor about two and a canoe

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they’re in that canoe together and they’re, not gonna, go anywhere until they realize that they’re mutually interdependent and they’re, both responsible for the success of the relationship and the quality of output.

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Mom. That tat tat was a solid answer for first question:

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you might, you might have said that once or twice before. Ah, but there was the young deftly a lot to unpack there, and the one I can hear from you is doom back to the original question was important in the first place, it’s important first place to establish that your common cure

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education base, which in turns ensure that everyone within your team and your organization, feel safe and secure to go, have those difficult conversations than sure that we’re all moving in the right direction, if I’ll, just summarize within the fifteen. Second, so will yeah know. I I think I said if I could sort of deep dive. A little

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yeah than the word of the day is support in oh five hundred seventy street, where the day and the. If, if you didn’t view, support is kind of an umbrella term and you unpack the word support appeal that I came back. I think support includes recognition. I think support includes opportunities to learn and grow. Support includes the psychological safety support includes,

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you know, understanding and appreciation for people’s lives outside of at what they do at work. It’s a lotta things and and back to this notion of when they get dissatisfied, disengage despairing in the party on it. When they don’t feel supported right, they don’t feel like they’re getting what they need,

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and so you know I noticed a long time ago that that done a lot of the stuff was left unsaid, the italic start.

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So many many moons ago I was at the xerox corporation

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and I was fresh out of grad school and it was my first big corporate gig and I was in the organization, development group, and I was one of about three or four people on a team and we were supporting five thousand people in manufacturing and engineering, and so one of the things I used to do in addition to team building and irks me in addition to leadership, training and empowerment, training and

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other things was team building, and so here’s how I did it- I mean back in those days, team building was day or two day long thing, and you know they they like doing that and they actually built this company believed in it.

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So I would interview the manager nina weeks before the team to holding a bandit, say: okay, what does your group need to its variants? What do they need to learn in? What you want to do at the station got eight hours where you’re not doing your usual stuff, and I want to make it useful and relevant,

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and so I would talk to the manager about things going well, not well, and I would ask how’s it going with your team and what I always heard was well they’re pretty good, but I wish I wish they were more prepared for op’s meetings. I wish they wouldn’t have side conversations during meetings. I wish they would resolve issues themselves without bugging me. I wish they would. You know, take my

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responsibility for this or that I wish I wish I wish and then I’d meet the team without the manager, because they were always more truthful and open. That way, and I in I usually got the strengths and the weaknesses of the team and what they wanted to learn and when I’d ask them, you know how’s the relationship with your manager. They would say well here she is pretty good, but we wish

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the acrobatic and they could get their wish list, which was you know we wish here. She gave us more recognition. We wish he or she would fill those empty positions because the extra workloads killing us or we wish he or she didn’t make mandatory overtime on the weekends or we wish he or she would blah blah blah, and it just sort of hit me like a two by four. These p

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apple are talking to each other, at least not about what they need to feel supported and be successful.

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So at first the team building included this exchange of expectations get what we need from each other,

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but the process evolved, and it grew over time in my car water- and I you know after I left the company and I started doing consulting. I was a part time, professor, and so that’s where I met tim and and then he had. I started to do stuff together, and so the process evolved into a very phased kind of thing where in the workplace, covenant with

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have the manager and the team think about really three things. What do I owe the other side to help them feel supported, be successful. What do I expect from them so that I or we will feel supported and be successful

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and what feedback you know? What feedback do I have now

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and and what questions do I ask we throw that one in sometimes tit what questions do I have of the other party, and so what would happen if I can use props here? You’re gonna like this? Oh, so this is the manager, and this is the ticket cake,

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and so the manager would outline. What do I owe my team to help them feel supported basic side out of coaching. I them resources. I owe them a consideration other outside life. I owe them opportunities to grow. I owe them this and that and the team would say here’s what we expect. Here’s what we expect from

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so that we will feel supported, be successful and the idea was to merge these lists, the obligations of manager and the expectations of team merged them together, and that created a covenant, not a religious thing, but just a set of promises and then and then we switched right and then we switch then we’d have the team talk about what they all and the manager

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when outline what he or she expects from the team at again, we’d merge those listed, and so these covenants were written documents, usually eight nine ten items long

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and the idea was to reflect on them from time to time to give each other feedback on on the thing from time to time, the team would rate itself and share that rating, and then they would rate the manager and share that rating. The manager would rate him or herself then rate the team, and so the idea was that micro adjustments were made all the time

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when a plane fly doesn’t just fly at thirty six thousand feet. You know for three hours, then drop right. I mean it’s constantly going up and down based on the weather, but based on the wins based on the runway. That’s available, it’s making micro adjustments in it’s flight and these covenants allow that to happen in the relationship

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between a manager and a team instead of waiting for some blow up than a let’s call hr. Let’s call the lawyers, let’s, let’s resign, let’s you know go through the forties,

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so that’s awesome. Answer axion, mostly answers the question which I had my head for fall on from the original, but one I want to get added view. Is you know

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I? I love everything and it makes sense what you just hard mode and having those lists in in in in having at all what we call in the military and all form net. I eat everyone’s all understanding of, what’s going on in your expectations in in an know in requirements, etc, etc.

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A what I would like get out of view is for those leaders, they’re listening in philly in early thinking themselves. Damn that sounds good. That’s what I need to do. That’s where how I need you, that’s. Why need to implement? To get my my team moving you at the next level hitting peak performance, but how do I go about actually

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doing that? You know how do I like star because it can be intimidating. It can be intimidating for the manager to go game. What are your expectations of me

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too many meds, exactly why we wrote the book. That is exactly why hidden fact that they they at the back of the the end part of the introduction. Is you know where do you start? How do you start particularly because the soft skills are got? You know the soft stuff? Is the heart stops at one corporate ceo, the the soft stuff is ours on? I think it’s true so yeah you’re right I mean people have great tech,

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nicole skills, especially in high tech firms and medical places, but they don’t always have the e que and the people skills to have this kind of conversation. So we we actually wrote the book with that kind of sheldon cooper, big bang theory person in mind,

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because we know they’re out there. We know they’re out there, they’re they’re, just a little bit uncertain or even clueless on on how to have that conversation. So there is kind of a step by step

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but recall the member. I told the story about, though the managers, the teams and team building- it’s iraq’s. It’s happened, so it was kind of fortuitous that, for me, the epiphany of this process started with engineers, because the mindset that I’ve always had with this process was to make it efficient to make it yeah.

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What’s the word elegant, I think when they talk about theories it took to get rid of the fluff right to make it as time efficient and value. Add is possible

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to not linger in things that don’t really have return, and so, quite frankly, this is a three hour session on the front end, and at that point it’s thirty to sixty men at reviews every two to three months and my opinion is, if you’re not willing to spend that to create meaningful partnership that you shouldn’t be mad at

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jim crockett, you’re, you’re, you’re, already off on the wrong foot and and have some things to learn about the nature of leadership. This the relationship you have is a manager with your team is so crucial. I mean there’s a ton of empirical research that says that that relationship with the boss is the one that affects performance and morale at attention and quality at all

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error rates and creativity, and you know all kinds of things that have been measured, that really come down to how how high is the quality between the manager and the individual, employee or the team? That relationship is arguably the single most important thing. So, ah the book was written with the notion of you know: let’s, let’s

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get rid of the fat was just focus on. What’s important and so that three hour conversation yes, is very much structured around exchanging. What do we need to do for each other in order to help the other party? In this case the manager helped the team or the team out the manager feel supported, be successful

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and discussing those items and where those matches don’t happen so member, I said the expectations of the team and the obligations of the manager. Will you comparing contract and there’s gonna, be outlined? Think right? The manager might have an obligation on his list. That says, I’m gonna help you

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get visibility of them that I offer opportunities for you to present to the levels above in you know, improve your career by exposure.

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That’s nowhere on the team’s expectation list, but the team says. Oh, that’s an interesting obligation. You got their boss. Actually we appreciate that. Please keep it on, but we have this expectation that you don’t have. We have this expectation that you will fill those open vacancies or be considered of our outside life and that’s no, where on your obligation list without actually is quite important

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to us, so that discussion is really important about what it takes to help the other feel supported

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and it becomes the basis of self feedback and other feedback. So get you to your point, a hobby, a habit of us conversation. You follow the questions.

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I think a third party is helpful, but not necessary. We, we wrote it with the notion in mind that a a manager could kind of pick this thing up and sort of look at part, one and part two and part three and stay okay know I can do this. This is like running a meeting. I pose a question to the team. I give them a few minutes to think about it and generate an answer, and they come back to me and I share my ideas with dampened

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it. I think most managers are fairly comfortable, facilitating a meeting and in some ways that’s all this is

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you know it helps to document it and we talk about assigning process, so these covenants are signed.

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So I don’t know that that kind of answers you’re now for sure and in in known to add on. I think it takes one, a lot of humility and two dropping your. Your ego is a leader ah to be open and transparent, so in kind back to a bit of what we talked about earlier, so to make us safer

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environment for for you to say, okay, guys know what is it that you expect from new york to make sure that I’m on track? In order for me to help you, I need you to help me to help you build a hurry that that whole back and forth thing right so known for sure.

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I asked I fully agree and I liked the process and in I think, the documentation bit documentation. I feel sometimes gets a bad rap

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a button same time. Some people like are we over document yeah. We over documents stuff that we shouldn’t overeat from that we shouldn’t document, but I think this actually win those times when we should document that, so you going I’ll, you can go. Look. You have pin up on your board next to your desk, you crap,

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so my coauthor and I have a cabinet right. I mean when I started to write the book and we realized oh gee. Maybe we should have the covenant that were talking about in the book and we created one and I said to tim okay. What do I need to do? Is your coauthor and also partner in consulting and other things that we do together, because we write articles and we we do consulting gigs and obviously

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the book, and yet I posed the question: what what do you know? What you need to do to help me feel supported? What do I need to do to help you feel supported? So we compared our list now we literally wrote the book on it, so it did take us three hours that it took us about thirty minutes, but it all. I came up with my list and I signed it and in a relative

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to my coauthor, it’s things like recognize his other obligations involved in planning, especially on issues of money, keep work out of the weekends recognize his role as a co consultant be open to his input, feedback and changes. Pay is in voices in a timely way, as he invoices me for consulting work, honest communication be clear, direct contain

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you, are synergy, fun and enjoyment and keep our commitments promised. I mean so it’s it’s the list of things you would expect to people who are working closely together in the kind of way that we are to have, and he obviously has a a similar list, but it’s got some differences preserve some things important to me that aren’t important to him

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and we have reviewed her and, and it provides the guardrails right so when we do have challenges around a financial thing or a difficult, consulting assignments door obligations with respect to promoting of the book, we can kind of look at that list and say: okay, here’s, here’s what’s important for him or here’s what’s important for me,

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love it! Absolutely love it you’re you’re you’re not just know, you’re practicing what you preach or what we are walking. The walk is, as you talk to talk, which is why we need more in today

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with the leaders out there. Now I kind of wanted the boomerang back you, you talked a bit about your model right. The earth top model saw a will would die a deeper dive into that. So you know exactly what is it used for? You mentioned skirt yo. It builds on itself. So

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how can the leaders look at the o, their current partnerships that they have within their meal within their teams? Me they’re great organization, maybe is with coworkers vice team members subordinates, or maybe it’s with their superior. How mean look at know those those relationships they have with this model? An okay. Now, how can I level these up

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yeah? So we’ve done empirical research on teams which we summarised in one of the chapters and we have measured empathy, respect trust, alignment and partnership. So we know they have a profound significant effect on recall that those five elements are four elements really empathy, respect, trust and alignment. Are the the things we’ve

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feel are necessary

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to create meaningful partnership? Let me use an analogy. If I say to you scott, I think you should be happy. I I wish for you to have a happy life. Okay

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and then you say: that’s that’s a great word south. I agree with you, but I don’t really understand you know what what does it mean to be happy, and so we could peel that back and say well, it means close, loving relationships, it means good health, it means financial independence, it means a degree of choice in your life and then it up at the opportunity to pursue things that mean something to you right. Those are compete,

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elements of happiness.

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We believe empathy, respect, trust and alignment are key components, maybe not exhaustive, but among, if not the most important elements of meaningful partnership.

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So empathy happens in this covenant process when both sides start to share what they expect and what they owe, because, let’s say, I’m your team right, you’re, the manager, I’m your team and you’re sharing with me what you think you know what what you owe me so that I’ll feel supported be successful, right, you’re saying I set from

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for you in the team. I should provide coaching. I should provide resources. I should provide training. I should be open to feedback. I should give you opportunity for co decision making, etc. Here’s what I owe you and when you go through that list, a bell goes off. It’s like! Oh. That list tells me how scott sees leadership, that’s what he thinks. Lee

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leadership is and I’m not making a judgment. That’s that’s not. You know good or a bad thing. It just gives me a window when you share what you owe to help us feel supported. That tells us something about how you see leadership and then, when we come back to you with here’s, what we expect from you, so that will feel supported, be successful, guess what you now have a window and how we think

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right, because that list tells you a lot about where we’re coming from what’s important to us, because we got a narrow it down to eight things. We don’t have fifty eight things. We have eighty seven or eight things right. We have to pick and choose among the most important, so there’s a

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an empathy, growth and empathy thing that happens there, because you’re now understanding more were coming. Private were more understanding where you’re coming from so that’s the beginning.

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I respect you know. The theories will tell you, there’s two kinds of respect in the world is owed, respect and earned. Respect, maybe heard those I mean owed. Respect is holding the door open for someone in please, and thank you and courtesy you would extend to anyone earned respect is over time. I respect your skills. I respect your unique back

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and I respect where you went to school. I respect the talents. You have, I respect your insights in your contributions, so those are things you uniquely have earned,

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and so, as you work together, ah from hopefully a greater basis of empathy, ah you behave your way into earned respect

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and then over time. We believe with higher empathy and are mutual respect

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comes higher mutual trust. I now trust you are willing to be vulnerable around you. I am willing to engage with you know. Oh and you have my back you’re not going to let others speak ill of me. You’re gonna keep your promises so there’s you know an enhanced level of trust. I think cubby talks about the bank account of trust. You probably heard of that. So those deposits

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get made over time and so overtime. Now you’ve got increasing apathy, increasing respect, increasing trust, and then you get to this really cool word. That is used a lot that few people have defined and we actually have- and that’s alignment were you know in in the book. We talk about two and a canoe,

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and we talk about that rowing because you can imagine in a canoe. I know we’ve been at one right. If one person’s gotta really powerful stroke and one person has just kind of a light stroke, what’s gonna happen that could who’s going to go in circles

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right literally, it’s gonna go in circles right, one strong rower one week, rower or if you’re, both on the same side and not on different sides. Again you’re gonna go in circles, so you have to be aligned. The stroke has to be the same. The timing has to be the same. You have to know where you’re both going etc.

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You know those expressions. We have that connote alignment singing from the same song book rowing in the same direction, sympathetic co were in sync, then we have all these words and expressions that being were, you know, were moving as one right and ah that’s a hard thing to achieve,

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but when you achieve it, that’s that’s what makes for a great team and that’s what makes for success.

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I’m in I I I think I see a a blue thing there and I know the canadian background you can to pick a hockey team right. A hockey team has to be aligned or they’re, not gonna, work. I’d add that pass pass of the park has to be if you’re, picking on a team you have to pick montreal or toronto to say labs of I’m a habs fan absolutely should have knew. There was a is

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oh my I like to. I hope I haven’t alienated half of your audience, doubts apathetic backpack back

00:25:44

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and and they were aligned during the play offs and that they’re not particularly alive now, but let’s not digress too much on that. So this word alignment is critical. It’s it’s a magic state of where everyone understands and agrees on the same goals, the same processes, same priorities

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and everyone’s willing to take one for the team,

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and it’s important that the manager and team b allied because sometimes the manager has his or her own agenda right and that’s where teams really get frustrated all the bosses just in it for himself. The boss is just chasing his bonus. He doesn’t really care what happens to us. He just wants to hit those marks on it.

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He can get a pay out in december

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right or the manager thinks the team doesn’t care. The team is not in this with me: the team doesn’t have my back. They can leave at five o’clock their asses on the line. I’m the one who’s accountable, I’m the one who’s going to suffer the consequences. They can go on their merry way,

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and you know those two things suggests they lack of alignment, a lack of commitment and

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an absence, a real partnership.

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Now I I I like to talk about moby called the three domains of leadership. My three demands leadership here, first, one being leading yourself by e leading use the leader. How do you I take care of your health? How do you make decisions? How do you develop yourself, new owner’s personal stuff, second

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mains, leading your team matches? What we’ve been talking about this whole conversation? Had you take care of them? The was your team. I you jack, susie, sallee, etc. How do you build that cohesion? How do you build that level? Respect trust between each other of mine, eccentrics and then funnel? One is your organization: how do you lead organizer?

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Should I eat the institution now he talked about. You know the facts that missile wind or how teams can have on each other. I eat near the bosses user from south, not really looking after us, not going after actual goals that we should just wants to hit that bonus,

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etc.

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Lunar the impacts on the organization’s whole when we don’t have that alignment from your point, haha,

00:27:52

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ah terrible culture, but the terrible culture I mean a lack of retention of it- has all kinds of metrics that show up pretty quickly.

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So here I am in rochester. New york, which has we talked about earlier, is on the south side of lake. Ontario is also home of an interesting organization, it’s called wegmans and they have been rated time and again as the leading supermarket chain. Certainly in the united states. Arguably, in the world, they always are on the top ten list of best places to work.

00:28:20

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They led the supermarkets in in store sales and quality and service and all kinds of other things they they show up in all the big charts of customers. I do I’m not gonna sing. Their praises do much without an endorsement air, but what I will say is they have a wonderful culture and if you look at the back of most of their employees business cards, it says

00:28:40

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employees, customers with sunni, it says employee’s. First. Customer second me say that again employs first customers. Second, that’s what it says on their business card

00:28:51

Speaker

on the back of their business back joe blow vice pres obama. Look at the back of a cart employee’s first customer sec, which tells you their philosophy, is to do what they can to make sure their associates are well treated. And ah I used to teach a graduate program in human resource development. I did that part time for fourteen years, so I had a parade of students in several work, for wegmans do have kept

00:29:11

Speaker

june, so I’ve talked with them about. You know what some other hr practices are, and they are very strong on the hr side and they have very clear, high standards for what they expect of their managers. Their managers have to check in with employees on a weekly basis. They have to have meetings. Often they have to know the more

00:29:31

Speaker

al of every employee on their team. They have to know the names of the significant others and children of their employees and important dates. They do all kinds of celebrations there in training quite often know how many weeks a year, but it’s it’s measured in weeks per year, not hours per year

00:29:47

Speaker

and they’re constantly rotating. And ah you know it’s a wonderful environment. I’ve known many people in the hr role there and they love it. People to sing there. I mean all that stuff that they promote. It’s true. It hope it’s a very highly engaged workplace. So, back to your question, culture, I think there’s two kinds of culture in the world in organizations there’s culture

00:30:07

Speaker

by default and culture by choice.

00:30:10

Speaker

Wegmans has made a culture by choice. They’ve asked themselves thoughtfully. What do we want? The work experience to be like here and what do we want? Our customers to experience and our partners and vendors and other things they have consciously thought? What’s the experience of being with us, either as an employee or a customer? What should that be? Like everyone else? I think is customer default.

00:30:30

Speaker

Airlines have a terrible experience, because I don’t really care how they treat their people and how they treat their customers.

00:30:37

Speaker

I think most organizations are culture by default, so you ask what happens?

00:30:43

Speaker

I think if you don’t care about the relationships between managers and teams’ you’ll end up with this culture by default,

00:30:50

Speaker

and it’s got a lot of problems to me and I think people go through those forties

00:30:56

Speaker

come back to that. I think a fatal feel supported over time by their manager by their coworkers. They start to feel dissatisfied and, if effect goes on long enough, they feel disengaged

00:31:06

Speaker

which, as we know, is that state of not really caring and kind of looking around passively for another job and you’re not fully present and you’re, not giving it a hundred and ten percent. You might give it a hundred percent on some days, but most danger, eighty or ninety or less, and if the disengagement goes on long enough, I think you enter a state of despair where you begin to feel you’re wasting your life

00:31:26

Speaker

life. You know you’re spinning your wheels you’re in a place where no one cares. You’re not gonna, grow you’re, not gonna, get better. It’s not gonna get better. The behavior of the people who are not supporting you is not gonna change and get kind of depressed, and then you depart-

00:31:41

Speaker

and I know in the economy, in the: u s right now, there’s a lot of people departing in a post covered. The economy is such that people can find other opportunities or they can work from home

00:31:51

Speaker

yeah. That movie called the good food. The great resignations ongoing right. So I think it’s really incumbent now more than ever

00:32:01

Speaker

for organizations to say. Okay, we better create this culture by by choice this culture by intent and and decide what we want the experience to be like, and so I think these covenants this covenant process helps you at at the unit of one manager in one team at a time

00:32:20

Speaker

if it’s not a fix for the entire thing, but over time one team, one team, one team: they all have these covenants. You create a sense of psychological safety. The covenants enable praised by the way in and recognition. Ah, they create an environment where grudges don’t happen because you’re actually giving feedback to each other at least every two to three months and you’re, raising it

00:32:40

Speaker

shoes before they, they fester for too long and you’re resolving them and you’re making changes to address them. So I think one of the other positive things that comes out of the workplace. Covenant is grudges, don’t happen as much have you noticed in the workplace. There are some people who just carry this baggage and these grudges. Oh he

00:33:00

Speaker

he screwed me three years ago, I’ll never work with him again. I don’t trust him a there’s. A lot of people like that

00:33:07

Speaker

way more than you think

00:33:11

Speaker

in all. We could go off in a direction about psychological illness or mental health, but I’ll just suffice it to say that there’s angry people in the workplace and people who have felt hard done by a chip on shoulder,

00:33:20

Speaker

and it’s because these things are left unaddressed for so long.

00:33:24

Speaker

The opportunities for apology or cleaning the slate or hitting reset don’t happen, and people may still have to work together, but they still carry those those hard feelings from way back, and so, when you have a workplace covenant, I think one of the side benefits is that at least every two or three months you wipe the slate clean. You do these covenant, reviews new, said: hey, let’s look back or

00:33:44

Speaker

the last two months and give each other feedback. What worked? What didn’t? How can I support you more? How can you support me more? Okay, guess what everything that happened last two months we forget about it. Let’s move on

00:33:54

Speaker

now we look at the next two months going forward and will review that in two months time and you just kind of take it two months at a time or three months at a time between reviews and it. I think it allows people to

00:34:06

Speaker

have a greater level of psychological health.

00:34:10

Speaker

Now at four haven forget can move on.

00:34:13

Speaker

I really like where you have to say there are going to go back to want something you mentioned earlier and yeomans. It’s obviously not a ban in a fix all solution, not bandy, but not the fix. All young isn’t is not the thing that will solve all the problems, an organization, but, as you explain it, the way I look at is like these are building blocks

00:34:34

Speaker

right. You stab was young. This great partnership with your team and the rest. The you have your coworkers do the same. With their teams building blocks are sat foundation level said you establish these covenants with your coworkers next level foundation get sentence, just builds and builds on, suddenly know you have the high performing in teams. You have high performing teams,

00:34:54

Speaker

and then you have has you mentioned wegmans of a high performing organizations where rush recognize year in year out with a an alter, a magnetic culture right right comes their culture,

00:35:06

Speaker

so what I would like for you to discuss poise were recently started wine down here.

00:35:13

Speaker

What I would like for you to discuss before wrap up is the effects that you know how organizations who operate in this manner are able to weather these storms that we’ve seen as of late. You know that the the impacts of code, nineteen on it, the impacts that we now see loop with the great race

00:35:33

Speaker

resignation, is ongoing. How do these organizations them value meaningful partnerships with in it hardy able to weather the storms? So let me take a story from the book and is the story of marie and she was the director of a business services team. Ah,

00:35:53

Speaker

at a team of about ten people, mostly in sales and mostly in the upstate new york area, there were some geographical dispersion than in a lot of rochester, where there were some in albany and buffalo and syracuse etc. And I have been working with her. We have been doing some executive coaching and three sixty staff and she would been working on her leadership and learning

00:36:13

Speaker

to be kind of more authentic and transparent and and motivating, and as part of that process of development on we did a a timid. I did a workplace covenant with her and her team fixing with the idea of fixing some relationships on the team and then that’s right around when colbert happened. Ah, and in fact we

00:36:33

Speaker

we, we had created the covenant in person, so you know flip charts conference room in our face to face that three hour session at happened, I’m gonna guess maybe it was december january twenty twenty and that we were scheduled for the first review, which happened march, thirteen which at least hear everything shut down. I think on the seventeenth

00:36:54

Speaker

or maybe was the eleventh. I saw the motives of fifteen. I was about four days before everything just went in, we knew it was coming and we know we just literally we’re gonna be days from from a big change happening,

00:37:05

Speaker

and ah the review was interesting because she was able to express frustration with her team. This was the situation in which a manager really felt abandoned by her team and not supported, and she was able to express that through the covenant and say: look, you know, here’s what I signed up for an here’s, what you guys signed up for and here’s the ten things on your list- and I see your ten signature

00:37:25

Speaker

is. Ah, you know, seven of these things are going pretty well, but these three things you guys. Let me down. Last month I made an here’s. What happened and here’s how I felt- and you know I’m a big girl, but the hertha. You know I was really pissed off at you guys left in a lurch and ah you know you could see the nods and you could see the breakthroughs on the team

00:37:45

Speaker

and that first review by the way was probably difficult for her, because she had a real truth to share and hard feelings to share,

00:37:54

Speaker

but they got it and they recognized and she was able to say to them. Look. I am busting my hump and working fifteen. Sixteen eighteen hour days on your, be your only see the stuff I’m doing, but I’m trying to make your life easier

00:38:06

Speaker

and so that message got through and it anchored them what was really cool in that first review and I’m getting to the coby part a second, but in that first review it anchored them to the all. This really is the way we’re gonna work. This wasn’t a flavor of the month. This covenant thing our boss, is taking it seriously the company’s taking it seriously. The consultants helping us

00:38:26

Speaker

so yeah, we better start living to that covenant actively and so that review was was kind of an emotional breakthrough will fast forward about six weeks, then there’s kobe everything’s online she’s doing everything online and what she reported back to me was the the incredible clarity of communication, the the connection that

00:38:46

Speaker

she had with people all of a sudden. There was a ton more honesty

00:38:51

Speaker

when she connected one on one people really understood and asked her. How was she doing? How is she handling the load? Ah, you know what can I do to help you marie? I, there was just an intensity of support that she had never felt before,

00:39:06

Speaker

ah and in turn it off. She was doing what she had always been doing to help them, and then they did this review other out that point I stepped away, so they did the next review on their own without the consultants and ah you know her report back to me- was it just- was amazing that they had this, because, during coded

00:39:26

Speaker

very different than most other teams, their sales went up.

00:39:30

Speaker

They actually did fifty percent better during covert than they had done. Prick of it

00:39:35

Speaker

add she attributed much of it, not all of it. Obviously, but much of it to just the increased synergy. Increased alignment,

00:39:42

Speaker

the increase communication, the increase support.

00:39:46

Speaker

You know they weren’t sort of this disparity fan everyone doing it for themselves. They were now really one unit looking out for the whole team is looking out for their manager and their manager looking out for them, so for them it made a huge difference and having that set of promises to each other that they really took seriously.

00:40:05

Speaker

I’m allowed them to

00:40:08

Speaker

have the resilience. I guess the right word is: you know the the the energy to get through it to the feeling that others have your back.

00:40:19

Speaker

Don’t badmouth your your target, an army guy when you say they’re, feeling that others have your back yeah, that’s what we operate for. It’s, because no one wants to reassure really nipples right. Who’s got his ex who’s got your sex life insurance run operations. Now the high risk of why

00:40:38

Speaker

so you gotta make sure that your team is operating at that point, but same time you know

00:40:44

Speaker

I. I was given a presentation to a group of physics students. I said and I’ll wrap the story up for your fairly quickly, but ultimate said you in a day is what we do in the army

00:40:55

Speaker

is very similar. What you guys do in the business world yeah were in the business of saving lives and you guys too, because any day I companies make money which gets paid to employees, then turn goes to feed families put shelters over without without that

00:41:11

Speaker

yeah you’re rich people’s lives going to risk. So the more mysore is the stronger. Our team is able to weather these storms get through these these tough times, while you’re you’re in fact, saving lives because you’re not necessarily laying off employees. Are you not living off as many employees in

00:41:31

Speaker

keeping them employed and keeping a roof above their head and food on the table for them and their families? So it it does matter. It does matter at that level. So I would say it matters at it in another way, just to kind of build electro sandwiches that you know between our middle twenties and our middle sixties. We spend more time with the people we work with than the people we live with.

00:41:51

Speaker

Tire of your waking time is spent at work. I mean work. Is it really is a second family for better for worse, and I think in other three words we use in the introduction of the book, which I love and they’re they’re, not words, I coined. I, I either works. I come from a different author, but he says workplaces should be characterized by dignity, meaning and community,

00:42:11

Speaker

and I love those words right dignity that there should be a dignity and work at their dignity in being part of this group that we treat each other with esteem and, respectively value differences that we value each other

00:42:23

Speaker

meaning means we’re doing something that we care about where or in this role to make a difference for our customers, our clients, whoever it is we’re serving in a non profit. It’s it’s mission and in a for profit, it’s our customers and community means. You know we have each other’s back, that where we help each other learn, we help each other in tough times. We support each other professionally and personally,

00:42:43

Speaker

that we stay together and ab.

00:42:46

Speaker

Those are great goals, but, as I note in the introduction is weed out in the introduction, timid, I, how do you make that happen? This gets back to culture. How do you create a workplace of dignity, meaning and community or good question? It takes really good quality relationships and you mention the military. I think a military think of a battalion are

00:43:06

Speaker

or that’s a lower unit us up. What’s? What’s you know, ten to twelve guys, you would call that a lot

00:43:13

Speaker

ten, twelve section, the section okay, so

00:43:17

Speaker

they need to respect their commanding officer, but in turn their commanding officer needs to see him herself as in service to

00:43:26

Speaker

the troops his or her team. Right, I mean in any group of soldiers who sees their manager. Boss doesn’t care their commanding officer, doesn’t care or will save his ass before saving theirs is not gonna. Have the loyalty and trust

00:43:40

Speaker

they’re not gonna? Have that commanding officers back? So it really is one of interdependence, and

00:43:49

Speaker

you know that that’s a noble goal, it’s a great goal

00:43:53

Speaker

but, as you noted the beginning of this type discussion, how do you make it happen? What’s the practical road path and that’s actually where I think the the book makes sense. This is where the book is offering people kind of a step by step and it provides the concept, but that it also provides here’s the five questions. You wanna ask your team. You know you’re struggling with how to create meaningful partnership. You were a fred,

00:44:13

Speaker

you know the first four chapters you now know it meaningful partnership is nearby into it and why it’s a good thing at a micro and macro level, now you’re wondering how to do it. Well guess what chapter six tells you how to do it or whatever the chapter is

00:44:26

Speaker

so I think I think that’s where the value would be for your listeners. Is it oh? How do you create that that state of meaningful partnership, elevated connection cohesion, coordination, collaboration, dignity, meaning and community? How do you get there?

00:44:42

Speaker

It starts with that conversation about support, but then it also goes to the next step, which is I’m willing to give myself feedback and share it with you, and I willing to offer your constructive feedback around your covenant and share with you what you’re doing great

00:44:56

Speaker

and thank you for it, but also point out where you could be a little better,

00:45:00

Speaker

and ah you know we. We accept that feedback in the spirit can just say something about feedback: the absolute

00:45:09

Speaker

in the workplace.

00:45:10

Speaker

Ah, without this kind of stuff people get very nervous about feedback. You know if, if you went into your job- and you know you got there

00:45:19

Speaker

or you picked up your voicemail at seven thirty in the morning and your manager’s voice- was there saying in a call me quick? I’ve got some feedback for you. A lot of people get very nervous about hearing that that voicemail from their manager,

00:45:32

Speaker

we kind of wonder what the feedback is and we can get defensive about it and frayed afraid of it, scared of it

00:45:38

Speaker

but back to sports. For a second imagine, a coach giving a hockey player feedback on hey. You gotta use your hips more. When you do that slap shot, I need you to twist your hips and put your weight and the slap shot at just use your arms. Would any player get bent out of shape by that feedback? Would any player say up you’re, embarrassing me! You mean, I don’t use

00:45:58

Speaker

my hips if they, but right I mean any. Any sports person will accept coach feedback willingly eagerly hungrily because they know it makes them into a better player and if they’re, a better player, the team is better chance of winning. That’s the mindset that the workplace covenant can break I’m hungry

00:46:19

Speaker

for your feedback. As I know, if I live to that covenant, I’m a better performer were a better team. We will all do better, and so you become eager for that feedback and not defensive about it,

00:46:32

Speaker

and I think that’s the other promise that the workplace covenant process has. I, I absolutely love them in fact, ah a pawn to your your examples there and you going with someone who you and I probably both know quite well- I’m very fond of is jim carey price arduino, my gosh best goalie in

00:46:52

Speaker

in the world, guess what he has

00:46:55

Speaker

his goalie coach of egg, and I guarantee you that goalie coach is not necessarily as good of a goalie is carey. Price’s cause terry’s argue reopen the best cause of all times, but he has someone who has an objective. Ah, the complaint out of little miss consistent little errors to carries making in

00:47:16

Speaker

a game in areas where he can prove his game right that from a different angle, and that is feedback in absolutely right in he takes it works with it constantly. So, yes, the famous world’s greatest old hunter gatherers, roosevelt tender and and michael phelps, though one of the world’s greatest or ugly, the great swimmer. With that woman,

00:47:36

Speaker

all islands or something yeah, you know every great athlete. Every great team has a great coach exactly and I think, if weakened and create a world word culture of the organization, is your supervisor supervisor they have their managerial duties, but deals off coaching responsibilities, and you can look at

00:47:56

Speaker

through that lens. It becomes a lot easier to digest.

00:48:01

Speaker

One more thought if I make chimney in in the introduction. Ah we take great pains- and I don’t remember what page it is, but it’s about five or six pages into it.

00:48:13

Speaker

If we make clear this book is not a leadership book, because it’s not a prescriptive for me, it doesn’t say here the forty eight things at great leaders need to do that. You need to do as a leader, nor is it a team work book. You know, as some books have come out and said you know here the eighteen things that great team should do, but rather

00:48:33

Speaker

rather what it says is you will be a better and greater leader. If you ask your team, what do they need from you and you really listen to it? Write it down side at at agree to live by it and you’ll be a much better team. If you ask your manager, what do you need to do for that? Manager’s success and you write it down and sign at emigrate, a lift to it and,

00:48:53

Speaker

and so that’s kind of an interesting thing. I I think I saw somewhere that you’re um you’re into martial arts, so you’re gonna. Like this analogy, I think I too did martial arts and still do, and if you ever judged sparring k when two people are sparring in a competition, as I have done, you know, there’s fighter and fighter b end end. If you’re a judge, you know that if

00:49:13

Speaker

you only look at fighter array, you’ll miss what fighter be is doing in terms of kicks and punches. You just won’t see it much as much of it and if you focus on fighter, be you miss what try to raise day and soda. As a judge, you learn to look at the middle. You learn to look in what’s in between fighter and five, because only then will you see the fast kicks and punches and be able to say this one scored first in a word, the point,

00:49:34

Speaker

and so the book is about. What’s in the middle, the book is not actually about what leaders need to do specifically or what the teams need to do. Specifically, it’s about that space in the middle

00:49:45

Speaker

in terms of how they interact and what they do to help the other side feel supported and be successful.

00:49:53

Speaker

Has awesome sup what a great way to wrap up the show? It’s been a fantastic conversation, one I feel like we could just keep going for the whole night here on happen when fortune on hurry things. If they hope to get a bear, I didn’t we it out. They picked I’ll hit, pause and recording now,

00:50:09

Speaker

but you can order. Things must come to them, but before we wrap up, you got to ask questions for you

00:50:15

Speaker

in the first of those two being a christian is of us here at peak performance lose podcast and those accord new set solar. What makes a great leader,

00:50:26

Speaker

ah, in my experience of coaching and doing executive, coaching and working with leaders in workplace confidence, self awareness is probably one of the number. What skills knowing how you come across being willing to get that feedback. Certain dose of humility and self deprecating humor

00:50:45

Speaker

yourself, too seriously,

00:50:49

Speaker

don’t get angry, don’t get stuck emotionally lift other people. I know I’m kind of throwing a lot here about just give you one single thing, but I think view yourself as someone who lifts others up. I I saw great ted talk by a woman who

00:51:04

Speaker

is an expert on civility and incivility in the workplace. I’m I’m forgetting her name right now, but it’s a wonderful ted talk and she basically says: there’s two kinds of leaders in the world: those who pull people down and those who lift others up, and I would advocate that you should be that person who helps people see what their talents and what their gifts are. I think give

00:51:24

Speaker

it is an interesting word to use. I learned that from peter block

00:51:28

Speaker

we used to use that word and you know it’s not it’s different than comparable scott you’ve got a competency in interviewing guests on the radio, that’s kind of dry, but if I say you have a gift for bringing people out and making them feel relaxed, you have a gift for making others feel comfortable and sharing what they know to your audience. It’s kind of deeper, isn’t it there’s a certain

00:51:48

Speaker

and almost quasi spiritual nature tone to that. So I think you should help people know their gifts and use their gifts. I think self awareness,

00:51:59

Speaker

self, deprecating sense of humor don’t take yourself too seriously that those would be my major pieces of advice

00:52:06

Speaker

im

00:52:07

Speaker

and also have a life. Don’t make work. The only thing

00:52:12

Speaker

you know some people are almost in our eighteen hours a day, seven days a week and and that’s

00:52:18

Speaker

it’s not healthy,

00:52:20

Speaker

there’s no self care there. It’s not conducive to personal relationships,

00:52:25

Speaker

so I think balance is important.

00:52:28

Speaker

Absolutely couldn’t grew to more. Hence my first means lead yourself right and that’s what it’s all about and final question of like us. How can you find a hug and volume shameless plug silva? You right now about additive silver, consulting inc, dot com? Is the website I’ll repeat that silver, like silver and gold concern

00:52:47

Speaker

halting inc all one word: dot com

00:52:52

Speaker

doctor seth are silver at gmail dot com is my email feel free to reach out an email

00:52:58

Speaker

and then linkedin a better, a fairly active linkedin profile? Are we my coauthor, and I talk a lot about the book than weekly, put up these podcast and other things that are going on and book signings

00:53:09

Speaker

and very much encourage people to go to amazon and find meaningful partnership at work, and please check it out shirt. Give it as a christmas gift here to your hr friends in near leadership, friends

00:53:25

Speaker

and we’d be happy to discuss anything a timid. I are also doing free webinar s around the bucket for people. Wanna buy a quantity of books. We can discuss that offline, but for a number of clients were were doing a free one hour webinar about the content, and you know they in turn are by thirty or forty bucks and were happy to do that. So

00:53:43

Speaker

thank you for that plug now. Nor is awesome and forty lister it’s easy is always just go to moving for lucia dot com port size, one, nine, seven, one, nine seven and all those links are actually in the short story. So south again, thanks for taking time coming out and speaking to us, but no meaningful partnerships at work is, is fantastic conversation I thoroughly enjoyed it.

00:54:03

Speaker

Thank you. Scott much appreciated.